Ethanol

[KingSlew]

Ethanol can cause:
a) Carburetors and fuel filters to become clogged with residual deposits.
b) Water contamination in fuel tanks.
c) Fiberglass fuel tanks to dissolve.
d) An engine to run on pure ethanol, significantly damaging the motor.

http://www.iboats.com/review_monthly..._article2.html

[Keta]

Originally Posted by KingSlew

Ethanol can cause:
a) Carburetors and fuel filters to become clogged with residual deposits.
b) Water contamination in fuel tanks.
c) Fiberglass fuel tanks to dissolve.
d) An engine to run on pure ethanol, significantly damaging the motor.

http://www.iboats.com/review_monthly..._article2.html

And soon we will have E-15 forced on us.

[Rawsk]

How do we start some legislative action to get it to be a requirement for more or all stations to have an E0 pump?

I find it to be a chore to drive my boat around and gas cans for ATV's and lawnmower up to 40 miles round trip to get ethanol. How is that helping save gas?

[fishin"G"man]

Ethanol costs more to make and causes so many problems. I can't see why we are so dead set on it as an "alternative" fuel. Aren't alternative fuels supposed to be cheaper, better, more efficient?

I know I know............. Yes, I went there. Talk about opening a can of worms!

[fish0n]

To find E-free gas in your area: http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=OR

[Rawsk]

thanks for the link - i know all the non-eth pumps in salem and the canyon
mill city, tangent, west salem, MNOP with a card during certain hours but it is an hour job to go to a station to get fuel from where I live. Try pulling your boat through the west salem gas station plus you have to cross Hwy 20 - not a good fit. For my boat - I sort of have it figured out - Tangent on the way back from Newport. But for other engines - my freakin' expensive Honda generator - my quads, etc it is a royal pain to be running all over the place with gas can. This is a big nerve for me - stupid half sided logic making these types of decisions for all of us that we have very little say in. At least after year one they relented some. I just wish more stations would get on board at some of the more convenient and coincidentally - busier locations. Pilot? I bet they would have a line all day long at Brooks Pilot for non-eth gas. Every guy who runs to the Willy or CR. I'm just saying. Call your local station and ask - enough ask and they see the demand they might change a pump over.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by fishin"G"man

I can't see why we are so dead set on it as an "alternative" fuel.

Follow the money.

[Soulakala]

Originally Posted by Keta

Follow the money.

Agreed follow the money right to your local politicians. You notice that when you run E10 your mileage drops, not much, but some. You notice the state has a tax per gallon of gas. Now lets see we push a product on the consumer make it sound environmentally friendly, but it makes them use more of it and the state has more income. Now does that explain why your state is not going to back down from this issue. E15 is not only going to cost you more its going to make the state a bunch of money. Its the legislature pick pocketing your wallet and we keep voting IN these same folks that have their finger on the vacuum switch. Why, because once their in they like the job and will do anything to keep it.

[Dummie]

It's clear we need to start buying hybrid outboards . . . or a really long extension cord. The Energy Secretary said three years ago he wanted to see gas at $9 ~ $10 per gallon and he's half way there. Rated hisowndamnself a grade of A-.

[Bucolic buffalo]

The Agriculture lobby, as well as environmental groups, has played a large part in getting E-15 approved. The cost of E-0 is more than offset by the associated costs of using E-10. I know some of you have used E-10 for years with no problems but there are those of us with older engines and those of us that don't operate equipment or boats all year long and draining the engine and tanks isn't an easy option. I have to agree that finding it can be difficult and can lead to time and many miles driven to find it. Some stations that do have it charge what E-10 supreme costs at other stations while most tack on an extra 10-40 cents to the price of supreme. I fill my boat at Tangent and/or carry cans when going fishing. I also buy at a station in Sisters that carries E-0. So far so good.

[Keta]

The problems E-10 cause were known by some of us when Carter was president.

[fishin"G"man]

Originally Posted by Soulakala

Agreed follow the money right to your local politicians. You notice that when you run E10 your mileage drops, not much, but some. You notice the state has a tax per gallon of gas. Now lets see we push a product on the consumer make it sound environmentally friendly, but it makes them use more of it and the state has more income. Now does that explain why your state is not going to back down from this issue. E15 is not only going to cost you more its going to make the state a bunch of money. Its the legislature pick pocketing your wallet and we keep voting IN these same folks that have their finger on the vacuum switch. Why, because once their in they like the job and will do anything to keep it.

Well said! The way politicians are "working" us, we'll be in double digit inflation in no time. I can't believe how stupid people are voting in/for the same idiots who condone this. You can only take so much before retaliation begins.

[Teton]

Originally Posted by Keta

The problems E-10 cause were known by some of us when Carter was president.

Were you alive back then?

[Chass]

This all sounds like a bunch of conspiracy theory without a lot of basis to me . . . and its getting awfully political in here.

I know I've been running E10 since the 80s and have never once had a problem with it. I think you all forget that Arco fuel has been E10 since the late 70s. Almost every off brand fuel was 10% ethanol as well as some major brands. They didn't just introduce this stuff!

I don't buy the argument that E10 is causing all your fuel and carb problems. Fuel and carb problems have been an issue since the dawn of the internal combustion engine. Quit blaming everyone else and buy a stinking water separator, high quality fuel filter, change your old junky fuel lines and rebuild your carb when its full of dirt because your paper filter has a hole in it.

Take better care of your junk and quit blaming the lack of maintenance problems on someone else.

Thats my 2 cents . . .

Chass
ct

[Rawsk]

Which filter set up do you recommend for my atvs, generator and lawn mowers?

[stone crab]

Originally Posted by Chass

This all sounds like a bunch of conspiracy theory without a lot of basis to me . . . and its getting awfully political in here.

I know I've been running E10 since the 80s and have never once had a problem with it. I think you all forget that Arco fuel has been E10 since the late 70s. Almost every off brand fuel was 10% ethanol as well as some major brands. They didn't just introduce this stuff!

I don't buy the argument that E10 is causing all your fuel and carb problems. Fuel and carb problems have been an issue since the dawn of the internal combustion engine. Quit blaming everyone else and buy a stinking water separator, high quality fuel filter, change your old junky fuel lines and rebuild your carb when its full of dirt because your paper filter has a hole in it.

Take better care of your junk and quit blaming the lack of maintenance problems on someone else.

Thats my 2 cents . . .

Chass
ct

What do you suggest for fiberglass fuel tanks?
There are a lot of folks that could use your 2cents and another $10,000 plus to fix fiberglass tanks that have delaminated and deteriorated. After replacing the destroyed tank, you get to move onto the fuel and engine system because even with the 10 micron filters, contaminants were still passing through to the engines.

[MegaByte]

Blaming ethanol problems on anyone is not the issue. The issue is it is bad stuff period! But wait, soon we will be able to run algae!
FYI
Ashley Massey, a spokeswoman for the State Marine Board in Oregon, where an E10 mandate is being enforced this year, said that when E10 first arrived, her agency was flooded by calls.
“What we’re hearing is that the boats are starting, but then they start to sputter” and quit, she said. They are also hard to restart, Ms. Massey said, adding that her own weed trimmer sputtered and died with E10, but revived with conventional gas.
Her agency has posted a list of gas stations that still sell unblended fuel, as permitted by exemptions to Oregon’s mandate, on its Web site. Warnings and tips about using E10 are included as well.

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by MegaByte

Blaming ethanol problems on anyone is not the issue. The issue is it is bad stuff period! But wait, soon we will be able to run algae!
FYI
Ashley Massey, a spokeswoman for the State Marine Board in Oregon, where an E10 mandate is being enforced this year, said that when E10 first arrived, her agency was flooded by calls.
“What we’re hearing is that the boats are starting, but then they start to sputter” and quit, she said. They are also hard to restart, Ms. Massey said, adding that her own weed trimmer sputtered and died with E10, but revived with conventional gas.
Her agency has posted a list of gas stations that still sell unblended fuel, as permitted by exemptions to Oregon’s mandate, on its Web site. Warnings and tips about using E10 are included as well.

Why would you want to run E-0 when it allows water to ball up in your tank? how do you get the water out? what do you do when the water gets to your filter and it stops flowing? do you use a hydrosorb or water lock filter?

The problem most have are when they run e-0 then get a little e-10 in a pinch and the big ball of water in there tank blends with there fuel.is the problem E-10 or E-0 ? With out e-10 there could be gallons of water in your tank and you would not know.

People used to put gas dryer in thier fuel that was nothing more that ethanol. used to laugh my butt off at the guys that complaned about e-10 then go in our store and by heet and dump it in....

[oregonrafter]

Thanks guys. I was unsure before, and now am confused as hell.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by huntntrap

People used to put gas dryer in thier fuel that was nothing more that ethanol. used to laugh my butt off at the guys that complaned about e-10 then go in our store and by heet and dump it in....

Heet and most fuel anti freeze is methanol not ethanol. Even if it was ethanol one pint per tank is not the same as 10% adulterant that comes in E10. Methanol is not good either, when I was playing around with the idea of starting a ethanol production facility in 70s I had several 55 drums of methanol I was playing with. 50% methanol worked ok in a VW Bug but it melted any rubber it contacted and caused me grief.



#1 Ethanol is made from food and is one of the reasons for the high prices in the store
#2 E10 has a very poor storage life
#3 Ethanol attracts water and after a bit of time a corrosive sludge drops out and it will plug carburetor jets and corrode the bottom of float bowls
#4 In a time of record fuel prices E10 gives you 15%-20% less mileage, a win win for those forcing ethanol on us
#5 E10s reduced mileage caused more fuel to be burnt thus creating more air pollution
#6 Ethanol ties up farmland and burned a lot of fuel to grow, ferment and distill.

These are just what I can think of now, if one researches you will find many more reasons E10 is a poor fuel.

Machinery like my ATV sets more than I use it, If I put E10 in it and don't run it out in a 60 days or so I have to take the carb apart and blow out the jets. The same for any small motor that does not get used often, boat, lawnmower, chainsaw...etc..

Chass, you are sadly mistaken if you think lack of maintenance is the problem. The only thing I didn't do was drain the fuel out of the carbs and tank every time I shut down a motor and that is ridiculous. Was it the lack of proper maintenance that caused the fuel lines on our '69 F250 to dissolve? How about the injector seals on our '85 Volvo? Don't even get me started on the damage I see in friends lawn mowers, our "lawn mowers" create methane and don't use fuel. E10 is a poor choice for fuel, the soon to be mandatory E15 is far worse. Do you actually bielieve the Oregon Marine Board thinks it's lack of maintenance causing the problems attributed to E10? You are wrong if you do.

Follow the money, Big Ag and several in congress are making big $ (at our expense) by forcing E10 on us. If you believe in fairies E10 production is far from "carbon neutral", in fact it has a very large enviromental footprint.

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by Keta

Heet and most fuel anti freeze is methanol not ethanol. Even if it was ethanol one pint per tank is not the same as 10% adulterant that comes in E10. Mrthanol is not good either, when I was playing around with the idea of starting a ethanol production facility in 70s I had several 55 drums of methanol I was playing with. 50% methanol worked ok in a VW Bug but it melted any rubber it contacted and caused me grief.



#1 Ethanol is made from food and is one of the reasons for the high prices in the store
#2 E10 has a very poor storage life
#3 Ethanol attracts water and after a bit of time a corrosive sludge drops out and it will plug carburetor jets and corrode the bottom of float bowls
#4 In a time of record fuel prices E10 gives you 15%-20% less mileage, a win win for those forcing ethanol on us
#5 E10s reduced mileage caused more fuel to be burnt thus creating more air pollution
#6 Ethanol ties up farmland and burned a lot of fuel to grow, ferment and distill.

These are just what I can think of now, if one researches you will find many more reasons E10 is a poor fuel.

Machinery like my ATV sets more than I use it, If I put E10 in it and don't run it out in a 60 days or so I have to take the carb apart and blow out the jets. The same for any small motor that does not get used often, boat, lawnmower, chainsaw...etc..

Chass, you are sadly mistaken if you think lack of maintenance is the problem. The only thing I didn't do was drain the fuel out of the carbs and tank every time I shut down a motor and that is ridiculous. Was it the lack of proper maintenance that caused the fuel lines on our '69 F250 to dissolve? How about the injector seals on our '85 Volvo? Don't even get me started on the damage I see in friends lawn mowers, our "lawn mowers" create methane and don't use fuel. E10 is a poor choice for fuel, the soon to be mandatory E15 is far worse. Do you actually bielieve the Oregon Marine Board thinks it's lack of maintenance causing the problems attributed to E10? You are wrong if you do.

Follow the money, Big Ag and several in congress are making big $ (at our expense) by forcing E10 on us. If you believe in fairies E10 production is far from "carbon neutral", in fact it has a very large enviromental footprint.

MEMORANDUM
SUBJECT: Water Phase Separation in Oxygenated Gasoline
- Corrected version of Kevin Krause memo
FROM: David Korotney, Chemical Engineer
Fuels Studies and Standards Branch
TO: Susan Willis, Manager
Fuels Studies and Standards Group
On May 26, 1995, Kevin Krause finalized a memorandum
describing the conditions under which water phase separation will
occur in oxygenated gasolines. Recently, several errors were
discovered in that memorandum. I have made the necessary
corrections, and now resubmit the complete text of Kevin's memo
for your review and approval.
Introduction
With the introduction of oxygenated gasoline came the
concern of water phase separation. Water in gasoline can have
different effects on an engine, depending on whether it is in
solution or a separate phase, and depending on the type of engine
being used. While separate water phases in a fuel can be
damaging to an engine, small amounts of water in solution with
gasoline should have no adverse effects on engine components. If
precautions to prevent water from entering the fuel system are
taken, water phase separation will likely not occur.
Discussion
Oxygenated fuels usually contain either ethanol or methyltertiary-
butyl-ether (MTBE). Other possible oxygenates include
ethyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (ETBE), tertiary-amyl-methyl-ether
(TAME), and tertiary-butyl-alcohol (TBA). Chemically, ethanol
and MTBE behave differently. Ethanol, for example, will readily
dissolve water, and is considered infinitely soluble in water.
MTBE, on the other hand, has little affinity for water, and can
only be dissolved in water to a content of 4.3 volume percent (at
room temperature). Therefore, ethanol/gasoline blends can
dissolve much more water than conventional gasoline, whereas
gasoline/MTBE blends act very much like conventional gasoline
when in the presence of water.
-40 -20 0 20 40 60 80
0.2
0.3
0.4
0.5
0.6
Temperature (F)
Water Content (Vol. %)
Water Tolerance of
90% Gasoline/10% Ethanol Blends
2
Figure 1
Since ethanol and water readily dissolve in each other, when
ethanol is used as an additive in gasoline, water will actually
dissolve in the blended fuel to a much greater extent than in
conventional gasoline. When the water reaches the maximum amount
that the gasoline blend can dissolve, any additional water will
separate from the gasoline. The amount of water required (in
percent of the total volume) for this phase separation to take
place varies with temperature, as shown in Figure 1. As an
example, at 60 degrees F, water can be absorbed by a blend of 90%
gasoline and 10% ethanol up to a content of 0.5 volume percent
before it will phase separate. This means that approximately 3.8
teaspoons of water can be dissolved per gallon of the fuel before
the water will begin to phase separate.
Since MTBE has much less affinity for water than does
ethanol, however, phase separation for MTBE/gasoline blends
occurs with only a small amount of water, as shown in Figure 2.
A blend of 85% gasoline and 15% MTBE can hold only 0.5 teaspoons
at 60 degrees F per gallon before the water will phase separate.
For comparison, one gallon of 100% gasoline can dissolve only
0.15 teaspoons water at the same temperature. These figures are
far below the 3.8 teaspoons which will cause phase separation in
the 90/10 ethanol blend.
0 20 40 60 80
0
0.02
0.04
0.06
0.08
Temperature (F)
Water Content (Vol. %)
100% Gasoline
15% MTBE
Water Tolerance of
100% Gasoline and 85%/15% MTBE Blends
3
Figure 2
Water can enter gasoline engines in two ways: in solution
with the fuel or as a separate phase from the gasoline. Water in
solution operates as no more than an inert diluent in the
combustion process. Since water is a natural product of
combustion, any water in solution is removed with the product
water in the exhaust system. The only effect water in solution
with gasoline can have on an engine is decreased fuel economy.
For example, assuming a high water concentration of 0.5 volume
percent, one would see a 0.5 percent decrease in fuel economy.
This fuel economy decrease is too low for an engine operator to
notice, since many other factors (such as ambient temperature
changes, wind and road conditions, etc.) affect fuel economy to a
much larger extent.
Water as a separate phase, however, can have differing
effects on gasoline engines, depending on whether the engine is
two-stroke (generally, smaller engines) or four-stroke (generally
automobile engines). In the case of conventional and MTBEblended
gasolines, when a water phase forms, it will drop to the
bottom of the fuel tank, and can therefore be drawn into the
engine by the fuel pump. Therefore, large amounts of water will
prevent the engine from running, but no engine damage will
result.
Phase separation in ethanol-blended gasoline, however, can
be more damaging than in MTBE blends and straight gasoline. When
phase separation occurs in an ethanol blended gasoline, the water
will actually begin to remove the ethanol from the gasoline.
Therefore, the second phase which can occur in ethanol blends
contains both ethanol and water, as opposed to just water in MTBE
blends and conventional gasoline. In the case of two-stroke
4
engines, this water-ethanol phase will compete with the blended
oil for bonding to the metal engine parts. Therefore, the engine
will not have enough lubrication, and engine damage may result.
In the case of four-stroke engines, the water-ethanol phase may
combust in the engine. This combustion can be damaging to the
engine because the water ethanol phase creates a leaner
combustion mixture (i.e. air to fuel ratio is higher than ideal).
Leaner mixtures tend to combust at higher temperatures, and can
damage engines, particularly those without sensors to calibrate
air to fuel ratios.
Phase separation, however, generally only occurs when liquid
water (as opposed to water vapor) is introduced to the fuel
system. If tank vents are left open, either in the engine being
operated, or at a fuel distribution station, water can enter the
fuel system in the form of rain (or spillage, etc.) or through
the air in the form of moisture. Also, since conventional
gasoline absorbs very little water, there is often a layer of
water present at the bottom of a filling station tank normally
used to store conventional gasoline (water is more dense than
gasoline, and will therefore sink to the bottom). Before an
oxygenated gasoline is added to such a storage tank for the first
time (particularly ethanol-blended fuels), this water must be
purged from the tank to prevent the water from removing any
ethanol from the fuel.
Since the solubility of water in both gasoline and air
decreases with a decrease in temperature, water can enter a fuel
system through condensation when the atmospheric temperature
changes. For example, assume a tank containing conventional
gasoline contains only one gallon of fuel. Assume also that it
is closed while the outside temperature is 100 degrees F with a
relative humidity of 100 percent. If this tank is left sealed
and the temperature drops to 40 degrees F, water will likely
condense on the inside of the tank, and dissolve in the fuel. In
order for enough water to condense from the air to cause
gasoline-water phase separation, however, there must be
approximately 200 gallons of air per gallon of fuel over this
temperature drop (100 to 40 degrees). Since oxygenated fuels can
hold even more water than conventional gasoline, it is even more
unlikely that enough water will condense from the air to cause
gasoline-water phase separation.
Another way water can enter gasoline is through absorption
from the air. Water, in the form of water vapor, can dissolve in
gasoline. The more humid the air, the faster the water vapor
will dissolve in the gasoline. Due to chemical equilibrium,
however, assuming a constant temperature, phase separation will
5
never occur if the only source of water is from the air. Only
enough water to saturate the fuel can enter the system, and no
more. Water vapor, however, dissolves in gasoline very slowly,
even at very high humidity. For example, at a constant
temperature of 100 degrees F and relative humidity of 100%, it
would take well over 200 days to saturate one gallon of gasoline
in an open gasoline can (assuming the only source of water is
water vapor from the air). Water absorption from the air is far
slower at lower temperatures and humidities. (At a temperature
of 70 degrees and relative humidity of 70%, it would take over
two years to saturate one gallon of conventional gasoline in the
same gasoline can.) Again, oxygenated gasolines can hold more
water than conventional gasoline, and would therefore take much
longer to saturate with water.
Conclusion
Water phase separation in any gasoline is most likely to
occur when liquid water comes in contact with the fuel. (Water
in the form of moisture in the air will generally not cause phase
separation.) Water which is in solution with gasoline is not a
problem in any engine, but as a separate phase it can prevent an
engine from running or even cause damage. Since oxygenated
gasolines, however, can hold more water than conventional
gasoline, phase separation is less likely to occur with
oxygenates present.
For any gasoline, simple precautions to prevent phase
separation from occuring should be taken. First of all, gasoline
should not be stored for long periods of time, especially during
seasonal changes which usually have large temperature changes
associated with them. (For both oxygenated and conventional
gasolines, gumming can also occur which is detrimental to any
engine.) If it is unavoidable to store gasoline for a long
period of time, one should be sure that the tank if full to
prevent condensation of water from the air, and the addition of a
fuel stabilizer should be considered. Lastly, care should be
taken not to allow water into the fuel sytem while filling fuel
tanks or operating the engine -- in the form of rain or a spash,
for example.
6
References
"Alcohols and Ethers: A Technical Assessment of Their
Application as Fuels and Fuel Components." API Publication
#4261, July 1988.
Douthit, W.H., B.C. Davis, E.D. Steinke, and H.M. Doherty.
"Performace Features of 15% MTBE/Gasoline Blends." SAE Technical
Paper Series #881667, October 1988.
"Fuel Ethanol." Technical Bulletin, Archer Daniels Midland
Company, September 1993.
"Storing and Handling Ethanol and Gasoline-Ethanol Blends at
Distribution Terminals and Service Stations." API Recommended
Practice #1626, First Edition, April 1985.
"The Use of Oxygenated Gasoline in Lawn & Garden Power Equipment,
Motorcycles, Boats, & Recreational Equipment." Downstream
Alternatives, Inc. Document #941101, November 1994.
"Use of Oxygenated Gasolines in Non-Automotive Engines." Chevron

Technical Bulletin, December 1992.

http://epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf

[Keta]

Feel free to use all of the E10 you want, it will not go in my small engines and older trucks. With the exception of poor mileage E10 works in my '99 F150 and the new " old bat mobile".

[lost_sailor]

Originally Posted by Rawsk

How do we start some legislative action to get it to be a requirement for more or all stations to have an E0 pump?

I know this one! You contact your state representative. If he/she does not respond, contact someone else's state representative.

Some bills are introduced on behalf of the Governor at the request of agencies, but really and truly most come from the people lobbying the reps. It helps if you have the bill already written, you know it's a lot of work getting elected - you don't expect them to write the legal stuff do ya?

Then you need a whole lot of people to make a bunch of noise about it.
I'm in.

[retaliate]

I completely agree with Chass on this one, As you all might know, we(Zeke & Myself) did a motor swap last year, took the 115 hp yama/merc off my merc outboard & put it on a Yama outboard which had a blown motor, did not see 1 bit of evidence of alcohol dammage during the swap, this is 10 years running(over 2,000 hrs) e10 exclusively on this motor, never used sta-bil, or any fuel stabalizers of any kind ever, on any motor, of all the internal combustion engines I have owned in my lifetime(probably over 40) have not seen 1 bit of evidence of alcohol related dammage, & I do all my maintenance myself, on all motors I own, including some carburator motors, including lawn mowers, snowmobiles, atv's, generators, chainsaws, & motorcycles, all except the atv's I still own, & maintain, now carburators neeed to be cleaned periodically, when siting for long periods, this is true before e10, & after e10, never had to replace any carb parts, removed, cleaned & replaced the carb on our riding lawn motor(2001 Craftsman 19.5 hp B&S 2cyl)for the first time last month, had the usual clogged jets, & debris in the fuel bowl, but no alcohol dammage, & no parts replaced, Wife says it runs as good as ever, I keep hearing about these alleged problems, even saw on television(oregon field guide) alleged problems, I have never had a actual problem myself, I believe there were some minor rubber, & plastic deterioating problems early on, perhaps 20 years ago, but most if not all of those problem have been solved early on.

[Critr Gitr]

So if E10 is so great why is Hawaii, one of the 1st states to mandate E10 on April 2 2006 now introducing legislation SB 2339 to totally repeal the mandate?

Do a little checking and you'll see that those state that first mandated it walked into a firestorm of problems.

Nothing but a political - follow the money - feel good - boondoggle.

[Bucolic buffalo]

E-10 and E-15 are here to stay so I guess we all will just have to deal with it. One thing that the MEMORANDUM stated was to keep the water out. Be aware of where and how your tank vents on your boat when washing it down. Mine vents with a downward cover on the outside but it is located well above my head when it is on the trailer and if I am not careful I could spray water up the vent and into the vent line during wash down. I have since rerouted the vent line with a big up sweep just inside of the hull.

[Dummie]

Originally Posted by Critr Gitr

So if E10 is so great why is Hawaii, one of the 1st states to mandate E10 on April 2 2006 now introducing legislation SB 2339 to totally repeal the mandate?

Do a little checking and you'll see that those state that first mandated it walked into a firestorm of problems.

Nothing but a political - follow the money - feel good - boondoggle.

WINNER!!!

As long as Iowa farmers get paid by the government to produce corn fuel for votes, we will have increasing amounts of alchy added to our fuel. Think not? Why is Brazil's alcohol allowed in the US - even though it is from a better source and cheaper? The answer, of course, is Brazilians don't get to vote here.

[kallitype]

Originally Posted by Dummie

WINNER!!!

As long as Iowa farmers get paid by the government to produce corn fuel for votes, we will have increasing amounts of alchy added to our fuel. Think not? Why is Brazil's alcohol allowed in the US - even though it is from a better source and cheaper? The answer, of course, is Brazilians don't get to vote here.

right on! HUntntrap, great info.

[Foreel]

Maybe no motor problems but if the rubber is being eaten where are the particles going..I changed all the fuel lines on my Yamaha 250 4 stroke so they don't get eaten and go through my fuel delivery system..Yamaha knew the lines they were putting on were not compatible with new fuels and they kept using them..A friend of mine got two new 150 4 strokes given to him when he sent the fuel pumps to an independent lab, after eating several, and leaving him stranded 50 or 60 miles off-shore several times..Lab results came back, the problems were because of the hoses and ruining his pumps..Yami told him to pound sand until his lawyer sent the results of the lab work to Yamaha..The president of Yamaha showed up at his shop a few day later with two techs to remove the motors..hmmmmmm.

[gg2000]

Originally Posted by Chass

This all sounds like a bunch of conspiracy theory without a lot of basis to me . . . and its getting awfully political in here.

I know I've been running E10 since the 80s and have never once had a problem with it. I think you all forget that Arco fuel has been E10 since the late 70s. Almost every off brand fuel was 10% ethanol as well as some major brands. They didn't just introduce this stuff!

I don't buy the argument that E10 is causing all your fuel and carb problems. Fuel and carb problems have been an issue since the dawn of the internal combustion engine. Quit blaming everyone else and buy a stinking water separator, high quality fuel filter, change your old junky fuel lines and rebuild your carb when its full of dirt because your paper filter has a hole in it.

Take better care of your junk and quit blaming the lack of maintenance problems on someone else.

Thats my 2 cents . . .

Chass
ct

If this ethanol isn't so bad how come the state and federal motor pools won't use it in there equipment?

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by gg2000

If this ethanol isn't so bad how come the state and federal motor pools won't use it in there equipment?

I work for the state and they run E-15 on everything

[Rawsk]

I had to replace a fuel pump on my T8 which failed due to corrosion.
Rebuilt atv carbs a few times do to corrosion which clogged jets and stuck floats open. In the meantime its over$20 of stabilizer for every tank full which after a $300 fill up is not much i guess. I guess if you want to take a chance on e10 or 15 in your $20k motor that is fine. All i want is more places to buy whole real gas. And i am not sure why that would bother anyone if i want that. Certainly not a reason to denegraten. To each his own.

[retaliate]

Just did a tune-up on a Onan Generator in our 1991 MH, no sign of any Alcohol damage to fuel line, probably the first inspection since new, no sign of any Alcohol dammage to the fuel line on the Lawn mower I worked on last month, there was no sign of any Alcohol dammage on the fuel lines on the Yamaha 115 4 stroke motor(s) we swapped last year, neither motor, so why are some Yamaha motor owners having problems?, maybe it's not the Alcohol, like I said I never use any fuel stabalizers, my Boat sit's for 7 or 8 months during the off season, don't drain, & replace the fuel, never had a problem with water in fuel, maybe the fuel stabalizer is causing the problem?

[KingSlew]

Originally Posted by retaliate

Just did a tune-up on a Onan Generator in our 1991 MH, no sign of any Alcohol damage to fuel line, probably the first inspection since new, no sign of any Alcohol dammage to the fuel line on the Lawn mower I worked on last month, there was no sign of any Alcohol dammage on the fuel lines on the Yamaha 115 4 stroke motor(s) we swapped last year, neither motor, so why are some Yamaha motor owners having problems?, maybe it's not the Alcohol, like I said I never use any fuel stabalizers, my Boat sit's for 7 or 8 months during the off season, don't drain, & replace the fuel, never had a problem with water in fuel, maybe the fuel stabalizer is causing the problem?

ETHANOL DOS AND DON'TS
• Replace pre-1985 fiberglass tanks.
• Replace fuel lines, o-rings and gaskets that aren't built for ethanol.
• Inspect hose clamps and metal fittings in the fuel system for corrosion.
• Refill the fuel tank often to reduce airspace in the tank, which reduces water condensation.
• Install a fuel line water separator to eliminate water that collects in the tank.
• Use fuel additives to stop fuel from aging and oxidizing.
• Use de-emulsifying or hydrophobic additives to prevent water from homogenizing with fuel.
Never use a fuel additive that emulsifies water.
Never buy fuel that isn't clear and bright.
Do not use E10 contaminated with water without a combustion-enhancing additive.
Do not leave a near-empty fuel tank sitting for long periods of time.

Source: Matthew Cohen, teamrsm.com

[Rawsk]

Perhaps it is something else. The fuel pump had whitish crusty crystals coating the metal parts which had pits in the surfaces. The diaphram would not seal. Not expensive but it failed. In that boat i used the green stabil. I had filters. Dont know what else it would be. I only had e10 in that 2000 striper. At the time it was 5 yrs old.

[pharmseller]

From the Honda Marine Fuel Recommendation web page:

Other interesting facts about ethanol

• Ethanol is produced from corn, soybeans, sugar cane, or other organic material. It is blended with gasoline (10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) to produce E10.
• Ethanol has 28% less energy density than gasoline, so it reduces fuel efficiency.
• Ethanol is an excellent solvent, drying agent and cleanser. It will clean or dissolve some parts of, and deposits in, fuel storage and fuel delivery systems, including some fuel tank materials. The dissolved material can clog filters or pass through and leave deposits on fuel injectors, fuel pumps, fuel pressure regulators, carburetor jets, intake tracts, valves, and valve guides.
• Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it attracts and retains water. The lower the fuel level in the tank, the more likely you will experience water contamination. If the contamination is severe, a layer of alcohol/water can form at the bottom of the fuel tank. This is called phase separation, and can cause damage to the fuel tank and engine.

Straight cut and paste.

P

[Little Buck]

Originally Posted by KingSlew

Ethanol can cause:
a) Carburetors and fuel filters to become clogged with residual deposits.
b) Water contamination in fuel tanks.
c) Fiberglass fuel tanks to dissolve.
d) An engine to run on pure ethanol, significantly damaging the motor.

http://www.iboats.com/review_monthly..._article2.html

Just bought a brand new Honda 90 fuel injected outboard from Coos bay.
The guy there said I could run ethanol 10 % in it with no problems. I have a water/fuel seperator installed. He would not reccomend regular gasoline when questioned.

[Chass]

I stand by my claim that its almost entirely maintenance and evironmental problems that are cuasing your issues.

I DON'T HAVE THEM! I take care of my junk.

I feel like you guys are not reading the the available literature . . . did anybody acutally read what huntntrap posted? If you read it top to bottom, I don't know how you could post some of the stuff I've read here.

Do what you must, I run E10 and everything keeps working. My junk works with ethanol. Heck, I just started my 1959 Ford 801 Powermaster tractor for the first time in 5 years. It had a half full tank of E10 when it was parked. A new battery and it started right up. That fuel STUNK like hell but it ran that danged tractor just fine. I drained it when I got it into the shop and put 5 gallons of fresh fuel in it. Runs like new.

Chass
ct

[Rawsk]

Ok you are right. Seems that your advice on maintenance is right on. Just wish i could figure out what else is clogging my atv carbs. And my 1 yr old ryobi 4 stroke line trimmer wont start either now.

[Keta]

Lack of maintenance does not cover it Chass, far too many "maintenance" issues that started when E-10 was forced on us. We should not accept carburetor rebuilds or replacement as normal maintenance. Draining the fuel out of small motors helps but that's ridiculous unless you are winterizing the motor or getting it ready for long term storage.

Originally Posted by Rawsk

Ok you are right. Seems that your advice on maintenance is right on. Just wish i could figure out what else is clogging my atv carbs. And my 1 yr old ryobi 4 stroke line trimmer wont start either now.

As well a several million other small motors that have died and now need new carburetors due to E-10 setting in them for longer than 60 days. The problems quit when E-0 is used.

http://isearch.avg.com/search?cid={F...d+small+motors

[MegaByte]

These is always two sides to every story. All I know is, I have ran outboards and inboards on boats for over 40 years. I never had any fuel line, carburator, stalling or any other issues until they introduced us to E-10. Must just be my lack of maintenance Chass....NOT Because I use my boat 50 miles offshore, I don't gamble with E10. That said, I must admit I did add some E10 stabilizer two my fuel tanks and that may very well have been the cause. Who the hell knows. All I know is I am not putting anything other than non E10 gas in my boats, mower, trimmer or generator. I do use it in my fleet of cars and trucks and they do not seem to have any issues. Why only in my boat motors?????????

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by MegaByte

These is always two sides to every story. All I know is, I have ran outboards and inboards on boats for over 40 years. I never had any fuel line, carburator, stalling or any other issues until they introduced us to E-10. Must just be my lack of maintenance Chass....NOT Because I use my boat 50 miles offshore, I don't gamble with E10. That said, I must admit I did add some E10 stabilizer two my fuel tanks and that may very well have been the cause. Who the hell knows. All I know is I am not putting anything other than non E10 gas in my boats, mower, trimmer or generator. I do use it in my fleet of cars and trucks and they do not seem to have any issues. Why only in my boat motors?????????

Everything I have read about E-10 and E-0 says E-10 is better than E-0 inn it's ability to manage water in your tank. why would you prefer to go 50 milles off shore with E-0 that has is four time more likely to have phase seperation and have a ball of water in your tank?

By the way I just bought a new DF175 suzuki and have been doing a lot of research on e-10. suzuki say's it's fine for my motor.

[Keta]

One of my goals is to keep water out of my fuel tank and water separators are mandatory on my boats. Water is not the problem, adulterating our fuel with ethanol is.

BTW, water in a fuel tank IS A MAINTENANCE issue.

Water contamination has always been a problem but the REAL problems started with the introduction of E-10.


And then there is the price of food that ethanol production has driven up.

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by Keta

One of my goals is to keep water out of my fuel tank and water separators are mandatory on my boats. Water is not the problem, adulterating our fuel with ethanol is.

Water contamination has always been a problem but the REAL problems started with the introduction of E-10.


And then there is the price of food that ethanol production has driven up.

With all do respect, whats the real problem that started with E-10? and don't say CARB and fuel hose problems because They've been around longer than E-10.

And the mother of all ?'s why does it only happen to some people?

I have every peace of equipment you mentioned earlier and have never had one problem.

[Keta]

Hoses did not melt and carbreator jets did not plug up with acidic crud before E-10. Mielage did not drop 20%-30% before E-10 was forced on us. The number of fuel system problems has drastically increased since the adulterated fuel was forced on us.

"And the mother of all ?'s why does it only happen to some people?"

Some people???? It's more like a lot of people with a few exceptions. I fix small engines (mostly lawn motors) for neighbors and friends and my work load has drasticlty increased due to E-10 dammage. When I tell them to go to E-0 most of their fuel problems go away. I still get bad fuel left over the winter but it is far easier to deal with draining the float bowl than rebuilding or replacing a carborator.

I'll repost the link for you JIC you chose to ignore the obvious.

http://isearch.avg.com/search?cid={F...d+small+motors

Follow the money.

If you want green fuel look elsewhere, ethanol is not the answer. I personally feel algae produced hydrocarbon fuel produced in a closed loop system and fed the sewage from our towns and cities is the answer but it is at least 10 years down the road thanks to Big Ag, the ethanol lobby and their bought and paid for politicians. Follow the money.

[Dummie]

Originally Posted by huntntrap

By the way I just bought a new DF175 suzuki and have been doing a lot of research on e-10. suzuki say's it's fine for my motor.

Nothing personal, but similar comments have been made in a number of posts on this topic. It seems to me than any outboard manufacturer that wants to sell $10,000 ~ $20,000 motors isn't going to tell you its better to seek and find a hard to locate fuel rather than gas at the nearest station.

And for all of the professional mechanics who make money to work on motors might think E-adulterated fuel is just great - for business.

If you use E-fuels and have no problems, more power to you. Keep using it. There is an oft quoted line from a movie: "Follow the money".

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by Dummie

Nothing personal, but similar comments have been made in a number of posts on this topic. It seems to me than any outboard manufacturer that wants to sell $10,000 ~ $20,000 motors isn't going to tell you its better to seek and find a hard to locate fuel rather than gas at the nearest station.

And for all of the professional mechanics who make money to work on motors might think E-adulterated fuel is just great - for business.

If you use E-fuels and have no problems, more power to you. Keep using it. There is an oft quoted line from a movie: "Follow the money".

My fuel system has a five year warranty you think they would tell me to run it if they are paying the bill?

[Soulakala]

Originally Posted by gg2000

If this ethanol isn't so bad how come the state and federal motor pools won't use it in there equipment?

I drive a fed vehicle and pull up to the same pump you do. So I don't believe your data is correct. I'm not the only one as most fed agencies don't have fuel storage in their motor pool area, a few do and that fuel is ALWAYS E10. In fact a memo went out that if you drive an E85 vehicle you must try to use that fuel.

Personally I had one of my outboards carb system totally rebuilt due to gasket failures. Not only the gaskets but hoses were soft and gummy. The rebuild kit was stated as Ethanol resistant not "proof". The other issue noted in the MEMO on this subject is all the other possible additives going into fuel to make them environmentally friendly that could be problems. Its just like the drug adds on TV, you may cure your problem but the side effects could be worse. I think that's what we're being forced to swallow all the while the chemical companies and government is sucking our wallets dry. KOOL-AIDE, please another glass of the green stuff.

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by Keta

Hoses did not melt and carbreator jets did not plug up with acidic crud before E-10. Mielage did not drop 20%-30% before E-10 was forced on us. The number of fuel system problems has drastically increased since the adulterated fuel was forced on us.

"And the mother of all ?'s why does it only happen to some people?"

Some people???? It's more like a lot of people with a few exceptions. I fix small engines (mostly lawn motors) for neighbors and friends and my work load has drasticlty increased due to E-10 dammage. When I tell them to go to E-0 most of their fuel problems go away. I still get bad fuel left over the winter but it is far easier to deal with draining the float bowl than rebuilding or replacing a carborator.

I'll repost the link for you JIC you chose to ignore the obvious.

http://isearch.avg.com/search?cid={F...d+small+motors

Follow the money.

If you want green fuel look elsewhere, ethanol is not the answer. I personally feel algae produced hydrocarbon fuel produced in a closed loop system and fed the sewage from our towns and cities is the answer but it is at least 10 years down the road thanks to Big Ag, the ethanol lobby and their bought and paid for politicians. Follow the money.

This is not a political debate. Your link is full of opinions that don't state their source.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by huntntrap

My fuel system has a five year warranty you think they would tell me to run it if they are paying the bill?

Modern fuel systems are more E-10 friendly than the pre adulterated fuel era fuel systems. I'd still suggest you drain your carburetors (if your motor has them) if you plan on letting your boat set for any amount of time.

The link just points out all of the damage attributed to ethanol adulterated fuel, spend a few minutes searching and you can find documented proof.

E-10 is political, political corruption at it's best.

[Dummie]

Originally Posted by huntntrap

My fuel system has a five year warranty you think they would tell me to run it if they are paying the bill?

Maybe their testing shows it takes that long for the collective damage to occur and they are playing the odds? Maybe the dealer where you bought the motor expects to see you yearly to winterize and will take care of any surfacing issues without telling you? Maybe the five year warranty is an inducement to buy that brand over another - even if they know it can E-10 issues?

There can be a great number of reasons why someone would say or do something.

As I said, it's not personal and my comment was not directed to you. I simply used you comment as typical of those who support E-fuels. Sorry if that upset you; that was not my intent.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by Dummie

Maybe their testing shows it takes that long for the collective damage to occur and they are playing the odds? Maybe the dealer where you bought the motor expects to see you yearly to winterize and will take care of any surfacing issues without telling you? Maybe the five year warranty is an inducement to buy that brand over another - even if they know it can E-10 issues?

There can be a great number of reasons why someone would say or do something.

As I said, it's not personal and my comment was not directed to you. I simply used you comment as typical of those who support E-fuels. Sorry if that upset you; that was not my intent.

Or they could have used fuel injection and ethanol resistant hoses and gaskets. Some of the known problems caused by ethanol adulterated fuel can be addressed but not all of them.

[Soulakala]

I filled up the boat yesterday with E0. The cost was $0.28 more than Safeway fuel. Based on my last Merc carb rebuild of just over $500 that $0.28 works out to 1700 plus gallons of fuel. So for me $0.28 is a no "BRAINER" its cheaper than a repair. Cheaper yet would be to vote out the politicians that side with big ag and eco-nuts.

[Driften]

My wife works at a fuel distribution company and around here at least ALL branded conco phillips 76 stations and Conco only carry non ethanol fuels, I checked this out myself and at least in my area it is true the company picks up fuel from different "racks" storage facility. Thought I'd pass that on to you guys, my question is, there are high and lower grade/priced gasoline out there and is it better to put a higher quality fuel with ethanol over a lower quality gas without ethanol?

[Threeweight]

Originally Posted by Driften

My wife works at a fuel distribution company and around here at least ALL branded conco phillips 76 stations and Conco only carry non ethanol fuels...

Then they are violating the law and subject to big fines. Pretty sure Washington has the E10 mandate in place. Wonder if they could be blending the ethanol at the pump? Adding 100 gallons of E100 to 1000 gallons of E0?

BoatUS Magazine had a good article on ethanol myths and facts a while back, along with quotes from a webinar done by Mercury Marine.

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/...er/ethanol.asp

Merc webinar:

Mercury Debunks More Ethanol Myths Mercury Marine, the world's largest manufacturer of marine engines, recently held a webinar to debunk some of its own myths about ethanol. I attended with interest. The first myth was that there are fuel additives that can prevent all issues associated with ethanol-blended gasoline. For example, no fuel additive can prevent ethanol from acting like a solvent. The second myth was that fuel additives can make stale or phase-separated fuel useable. "Fuel cannot be rejuvenated," Mercury determined, and they noted that it's a myth that ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided. Here are some quotes from the Mercury Marine webinar.

• "There is no active transfer mechanism for ethanol molecules to reach out and 'grab' water molecules out of the air. Under normal storage conditions, even in a vented fuel tank, it just does not happen at a level or rate that is relevant."
• "Major multi-billion dollar companies with enormous resources have improved gasoline additives but there have been no recent breakthroughs involving 'magical technology.' Claims made by companies about 'space-age,' 'revolutionary,' or special proprietary technology should be looked at with a high degree of suspicion."
• "E10 Ethanol absolutely IS an acceptable fuel for everyday use."
• "E15 Ethanol absolutely IS NOT an acceptable fuel."
• "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'"
• "Don't immediately assume E10 is the problem."

[Keta]

New Mercs not the old stuff I run.

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by Keta

New Mercs not the old stuff I run.

That's your problem not e-10

[Keta]

Originally Posted by huntntrap

That's your problem not e-10

COME ON!!!! Do you honestly think like that? If so, I sincerely feel sorry for you.

I've repaired, rebuilt and maintained my old gas motors and they worked well until E-10 was forced on us, do you want to replace them for me? I sure could use a '99-'02 F250 7.3 diesel to replace the '69 F250. And how about forking out the money for a repower, I'd sure like to replace the '96 302 with something lighter and more powerful. And how about replacing my old gen set?

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by Keta

COME ON!!!! Do you honestly think like that? If so, I sincerely feel sorry for you.

I've repaired, rebuilt and maintained my old gas motors and they worked well until E-10 was forced on us, do you want to replace them for me? I sure could use a '99-'02 F250 7.3 diesel to replace the '69 F250. And how about forking out the money for a repower, I'd sure like to replace the '96 302 with something lighter and more powerful. And how about replacing my old gen set?

Your intitled to your opinion but some facts would be nice

[ondarvr]

I’m on both sides of this, I don’t like E-10, or the reasons why it’s been forced on us, BUT on the other hand, I have been using it for about 20 years and can’t point at any problems directly related to it, most of the issues were about the same as before that time.

I’ve done my own wrenching since the 60’s, had boats and raced motorcycles since that time and I can’t say the issues I’ve seen have changed much. I had water in the fuel, plugged carbs, bad gas from the station, bad fuel lines, etc, at about the same rate since I started playing with engines.

Are there possible issues with E-10…yes, but many are hyped by additive companies to suck even more $$$ out your pocket, most do little, if anything to help…well, other than to make you feel good.

The motors I use date from the late 60’s to current, they all run whatever the gas pump fills the tank with, and they all run E-10 with no issues.

Like I said though, I don’t like it and would prefer we could switch back.