number of guides ?

KbarreraJ · 02-29-2008, 09:22 AM

question on the number and why?? genarally 81/2 - 9 ft. rods have 9 guides when using concept giudes 2 double foot 1 bridge the rest are single foot, measurements jump to 10 guides up to 13 ???

E. Harry · 02-29-2008, 12:25 PM

KbarreraJ,
The number and positioning of guides involves several trade offs so there is no absolutely right or wrong answer.
The more guides the better the stress distribution, the lower the stresses on the rod, the fewer guides the poorer the stress distribution or the higher the stresses on the rod. However, as you add guides you are adding mass (weight) that lowers the rods resonant frequency which reduces casting distance or ease of casting and the added mass also reduces the rods sensitivity.
Some of the newer, lighter guides naturally permit the addition of a guide or two but the old rule of theumb of one guide per foot of rod length is a good place to start.
Guide positioning is as important as the total number. For the positioning I would start with the Static Distribution System and adjust as necessary from there by test casting the rod if it is a rod that will be used to cast with.

abufreak · 02-29-2008, 01:02 PM

a big factor you have to consider when using fuji's concept system is that the single foot "fly" guides that are usually piled on near the tip are very short, so you need a lot of them to keep the line from dipping below the blank when the rod is loaded. other manufacturers(batson, pacific bay, etc) fly guides have a higher frame so less are needed.

that said, i believe that a good rod builder goes by feel, not by some chart. i feel the "fuji concept system" is a bunch of baloney. you want whatever doesn't dampen the rod's feel or add too much weight by using too many guides, but at the same time you don't want to create too many stress points on both the line and the blank by using too few. you want somewhere in the middle

on an 8'6-9'0 rod, i always seem to end up using 9 or 10 guides. i like the higher frame style which enables me to get away with fewer guides.

KbarreraJ · 02-29-2008, 01:09 PM

thanks, trying to get away from the weight (the 9 guides) you would add with the extra you would put on... thanks again J.B.

StickFish · 02-29-2008, 03:36 PM

question for you, have you even picked up 9 guides? - unless you are using some honking Am tac Turbo boat guides I would be surprised if you could tell between 9 and 15 in your hand. Especially those with Ti frames.

More guides means more wraps, which changes the action of the rod as well. If you are really trying to save weight and want to use the single foot guides, switch to an acid or spiral wrap, than you can get away with using few guides and still match the bend of the rod to the line going through them and not have to worry about the line touching the blank.

KbarreraJ · 02-29-2008, 06:08 PM

personally i don't think you would feel the difference in the weight but how much would it change the action in the rod .

E. Harry · 02-29-2008, 08:05 PM

Extra guides will not change the action of the rod but will change the rods resonant frequency (response time). You are adding mass which will lower the resonant frequency. On something like a Steelhead rod you will feel the difference that just one guide makes. If you are skeptical take your favorite rod and shake it then tape an extra guide on it toward the tip of the rod and now shake it again.
I made a bunch of measurements and wrote an article for RodMaker magazine about this a couple of years ago. It turned out that on a Steelhead rod (8 to 12 lb.) adding just one extra #6 guide near the tip (9 to 10 guides total) dropped the resonance almost 10% and 10% you can definately feel.

Grady252 · 02-29-2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KbarreraJ

personally i don't think you would feel the difference in the weight but how much would it change the action in the rod .

How heavy of a rod are you talking about? what type of rod are you building, casting, trolling, boat rod? Those things will affect the outcome and if there will be a difference.

If it is a light weight bass rod, that will be used for casting you may think differently than if it is a heavier salmon rod that is ued for trolling..... then again you may be building a medium Steal Head rod used for bouncing from the bank???

If it is not a light rod to start with none of this will likely matter. What type of action are you looking for..... even if you look at static placement charts they have a different number of guides depending on the use of the rod. It's not like a factory one size fits all......

If you tell me what type of rod and the lenght I can tell you a static starting place and the number of guides from my book. Of you can look at rodbuilding.org and do a search for "new guide concept" and order the back issue of Rodmaker Magazine.

The "New Guide Concept" is a little to high tech for me.... it has you calculate the guides with the actual reel to be used on the rod...... I change reels around.

I use a chart for the number and spacing and then run a static test and adjust as needed.

GSD · 03-01-2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StickFish

If you are really trying to save weight and want to use the single foot guides, switch to an acid or spiral wrap, than you can get away with using few guides and still match the bend of the rod to the line going through them and not have to worry about the line touching the blank.

Hope you don't mind StickFish, I thought some of the newer rod wrappers here might not know what an acid or spiral wrap is. Here are a couple examples:

StickFish · 03-01-2008, 08:52 AM

Nice pic GSD thanks for adding.

Also on guide spacing, I have an excel spreadsheet that does all the calculations once you tell it how many guides and how far the stripper guide is from the tip. Pretty slick, got it from Crabbait and 2slow. I use it also as a rod log of the rods I built and where the guides ended up, so if I build another one, I'm ready to go.

KbarreraJ · 03-01-2008, 09:00 AM

hey guy's thanks for all the responses , the rods would be 81/2-9ft. med. - med. heavy , this is section of the board thanks jennie... GSD that acid spiral looks very intersting, heard of it have'nt tried it .....J.B.

StickFish · 03-01-2008, 10:16 AM

Kb, just a little info about the spiral. The pic that GSD put up shows a gradual spiral that uses two "bumper" guides. If you read up on rodbuilders, most of the builders there have switched to a single "bumper" or transition guide to get the line under the blank as fast as possible. The reasoning behind this is that the second guide after the transition is bearing most of the weight. My thinking on this is you don't want that guide to far out where its past the backbone of the rod or you start to load the rod at the point where it really isn't supposed to.

The point of the spiral is that it defeats torque in you rod and blank. Have you ever had a large fish on a conventional rod and noticed the tip top is turned towards the water, well that is twisting your blank. You've probably also felt how the rod wants to role over. With the spiral none of that happens you could hold the grips with open palms and the rod will not role over.

There is no right or wrong to how you tie a spiral, except that the line should never touch the blank.

Hope that helps

GSD · 03-01-2008, 10:42 AM

I was first introduced to the spiral wrap about 20 years ago, it was in a book I bought when I started building rods: Advanced Custom Rod Building by Dale P. Clemens.
Back then, it was my only good source of info, since the internet as it is today, was non-existant.

Grady252 · 03-01-2008, 03:06 PM

Another little tid bit of trivia I read on RBO site a while back is that G-Loomis original rods offered spirals back in the 80's, but it never caught on, so he quit offering them.....

KbarreraJ · 03-01-2008, 05:39 PM

what about the magical spine , how does this effect it???

StickFish · 03-01-2008, 05:55 PM

Spine it and the first guide goes on the outside of the curve, the transition 90 degrees off and the rest on the inside like a spinning rod, but using casting guides

E. Harry · 03-01-2008, 07:34 PM

Stickfish is correct unless you want the spine on the plane of your cast which will be about 90 degrees out from what is the usual recommendation for spine location. Plus torque is force times moment arm and the moment arm that is created by the rod spine is small compared to the moment arm created by the guides. The torque created by the guides will swamp any torque that is the result of the blanks spine. Also the spine on most blanks tends to rotate up the blank so that the more stress that is applied to the blank and the more strain that results (the more the blank deflects) the more that the spine tends to move.
I think that modern rod builders who now better understand what causes the spine and what its affect tends to be discount it and tend to mount the guides on the blanks straightest axis.

fishkisser · 03-03-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Harry

Stickfish is correct unless you want the spine on the plane of your cast which will be about 90 degrees out from what is the usual recommendation for spine location. Plus torque is force times moment arm and the moment arm that is created by the rod spine is small compared to the moment arm created by the guides. The torque created by the guides will swamp any torque that is the result of the blanks spine. Also the spine on most blanks tends to rotate up the blank so that the more stress that is applied to the blank and the more strain that results (the more the blank deflects) the more that the spine tends to move.
I think that modern rod builders who now better understand what causes the spine and what its affect tends to be discount it and tend to mount the guides on the blanks straightest axis.

I think I'll just stick to doing it the way I have for 40 years ...
Find the spine and orient the blank for the type of rod I'm building...

Grady252 · 03-03-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Harry

I think that modern rod builders who now better understand what causes the spine and what its affect tends to be discount it and tend to mount the guides on the blanks straightest axis.

E. Harry,
I am a new rod builder, so I only go by what I read because I do not have experience to back me up. When I have posted and read these type of questions on RBO, the answer is a littler different. From what I gather if you are building a spiral rod or large Roller rod spine is not so important and they go with the straightest axis. In both of these instances the spine is negated by the type of rod, but for conventional rods the spine is still an important factor as I understand it.....

Stickfish had posted about a spiral, so that might have been the only rod you were addressing.....

I am not arguing with you or saying you're wrong at all, I am mostly repeating what I have seen on RBO, and seeking clarification. There are a lot of different opinions and I like to filter through and form my own....

Thanks!

E. Harry · 03-03-2008, 04:40 PM

Grady,
You are right there are a lot of opinions about spine and its effects. I think that lot of old myths die hard.
As far as Rodbuilding.org is concerned I think that if you will post a question about spine and guide allignment there you will find that the vast majority of the experienced rod builders that post there ignore it and allign their guides on the straightest axis. I know Tom Kirkman who owns that site and have spoken with him about it numerous times and he feels as I do about spine.
If you want to find builders that believe strongly in how guides should be alligned relative to spine go to the Rod Builders Guild. There are a couple of guys there that I think have made a career out of blowing smoke about spine.
I think that you are also right about spiral wraps. That the orientation of the spine is even less important with a spiral wrap.
But if you are interested in more technical information about it so as to make up your own mind about it you can go to this site [CSFA.com] and there is a very good explanation there of spine. This site is done by a guy named John Kaufman who is very knowlegable and makes a device for measuring the resonant frequency of golf club shafts and in the application notes on his site he discusses spine in graphite golf club shafts but the principles are the same as with graphite rod blanks.
Having said all of that, I do not think that you do any significant harm however you allign the guides relative to the spine and I also think that occasionally you will run into a blank that has a very, very strong spine, often 90 degrees from the straightest axis but I deal with them by just not building rods out of them.

Grady252 · 03-04-2008, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E. Harry

Grady,
As far as Rodbuilding.org is concerned I think that if you will post a question about spine and guide allignment there you will find that the vast majority of the experienced rod builders that post there ignore it and allign their guides on the straightest axis. I know Tom Kirkman who owns that site and have spoken with him about it numerous times and he feels as I do about spine.

E.Harry, and others, I did as recommended and posted a question on RBO. It seems that a majority of the "pros" give little regard for the spine or spline.... I got many responses from some great rods builders... Thank you for the info, and I think I will give less importance to spine myself.....

KbarreraJ · 03-04-2008, 04:45 PM

now on the spiral wrap, is there an advantage to doing this or just another way to wrap?

Grady252 · 03-04-2008, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KbarreraJ

now on the spiral wrap, is there an advantage to doing this or just another way to wrap?

huge advantage..... There is a lot of research available about spirals on RBO, back issues of Rod Maker Magazine, Acidrod.com, and a search will likely yield a lot more..... There are several versions of the spiral or "robertson wrap" patented in 1909.....

I suggest a Stickfish the simple spiral basically find your guide spacing and between the stripper guide and the second guide from the butt add a smaller guide as a "bumper guide" at the 90 degrees from the stripper guide. The second guide (not counting the bumper) will be 180 degrees from the stripper guide. All other guides will be in line and on the bottom....

Advantages:

1) You can get away with less guides.... a conventional casting rod must have a lot of guides to keep the line off the blank when it is flexed, or you will get "line burn" on the blank when fighting a fish..... with the guides on the bottom the line pulls down and will never be in danger of touching the blank like a spinning rod.

2) The rod will be stable, less likely to break, and not torque or twist in your hand..... The transition to the bottom makes the line pull on the bottom of the guides at the lowest point where it naturally wants to be.... This in turn pulls the rod into your hand and stabilizes it. Unlike a conventional where the guide are 1/4" to 1/2" above the balnk the line is pullng down and trying to pull through the blank causing great amounts of torque.

Have you ever had a salmon or steeley on rod and the guides actually twist around to the bottom while you are fighting the fish? This is what causes the rod to break... twisting and torquing at the same time....

I have made about 10 spirals and I really enjoy them..... last year I got to fight a couple of tuna on my own rods and it was great!!!

KbarreraJ · 03-05-2008, 05:14 AM

when i spine a rod i refer to it as the hard spots or the soft spot , a couple of times that i put the guides on top of the hard spot the rod want to twist broke one ! when i put them on the soft spot there was no problem. the spiral does sound very interesting...

StickFish · 03-06-2008, 05:18 AM

I think Grady covered that pretty well. Some folks do still want them wrapped conventionally but of the last 20 or so rods I've done 4 were conventional.

The bumper guide placement is pretty easy on a really stiff blank 1/2 the distance works pretty good. On a blank that has some flex, glue on the tip tom, tape the guides on except for the bumper, put on the reel that the rod will use, run some line through it and hang a one once lead ball on it. Then attach a second line to the tip top and pull that to load up the rod. Make a mark where the line crosses the blank and that is you bumper guide location. Makes for a nice straight line from the reel to the 1st 180 degree guide.

If you are in the Tigard area and want to pull on a spiral yourself, drop me a PM or catch me at the dock this summer.

KbarreraJ · 03-06-2008, 05:48 AM

that would be great to hook-up and try that sometime with someone thanks . i build quite a few rods but have'nt tried that .

Grady252 · 03-06-2008, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KbarreraJ

that would be great to hook-up and try that sometime with someone thanks . i build quite a few rods but have'nt tried that .

I live in South Salem..... And make the same offer as Stickfish... I have a half dozen spirals here to try.....

KbarreraJ · 03-06-2008, 06:47 AM

hey thanks grady i'll take you up on that , what part of salem are you at ??? i'm off of market by the old rock-n-rogers. J.B.

Grady252 · 03-06-2008, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KbarreraJ

hey thanks grady i'll take you up on that , what part of salem are you at ??? i'm off of market by the old rock-n-rogers. J.B.

South...... out Liberty road 5 miles south past Kuebler... I will PM my number.