Ethanol

[Keta]

Originally Posted by huntntrap

Your intitled to your opinion but some facts would be nice

The facts have been posted.
E-10 is not good for older gas engines
E-10 does not give you good mielage
E-10 is produced using food and food producing land and ethanol production has a very large enviromental footprint.
Big Ag and their bought and paid for politicians are the only reason we have been forced to using this poor fuel.
Ethanol is diverting and stopping research into a real source of bio energy.

So, are you are going to buy me a '99 F-250 diesel so I don't have to maintain my older truck? Better yet, how about grubstaking me on building an electric car?

[retaliate]

I'm not for, or against E10, just sharing my experiences, which is what discussion boards are supposted be about, no doubt something is causing problems, there are many additives in Gasoline, & are different for each company, & different for some states as well, Calif uses mte or somthing like that, which I believe caused the fuel injectors in a 87 Jeep Cherokee 4.0l to leak, back in the mid to late 90's, but stopped with the first tank of Oregon e10, other over the counter additives also might be causing problems also, & doing more harm than good, I dunno, the only additive I use on occasion is Fuel injector clearner, don't know if it's juat another usless gimick, but doesn't seem to cause any dammage/problems, those still with older motors should be concerned, espically if they can't replace older rubber, & plastic parts in their fuel system, others may steer away from e10 just for peace of mind, thats their choice, I personally don't have any worries going 50+ miles offshore with e10...cause I've been doing it for many years already, looking forward to another year as well.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by retaliate

I'm not for, or against E10, just sharing my experiences, which is what discussion boards are supposted be about, no doubt something is causing problems, there are many additives in Gasoline, & are different for each company, & different for some states as well, Calif uses mte or somthing like that, which I believe caused the fuel injectors in a 87 Jeep Cherokee 4.0l to leak, back in the mid to late 90's, but stopped with the first tank of Oregon e10, other over the counter additives also might be causing problems also, & doing more harm than good, I dunno, the only additive I use on occasion is Fuel injector clearner, don't know if it's juat another usless gimick, but doesn't seem to cause any dammage/problems, those still with older motors should be concerned, espically if they can't replace older rubber, & plastic parts in their fuel system, others may steer away from e10 just for peace of mind, thats their choice, I personally don't have any worries going 50+ miles offshore with e10...cause I've been doing it for many years already, looking forward to another year as well.

I am against ethanol for fuel and have been so since the mid '70s when I was considering building an ethanol production plant in the mid west. Burning food is stupid and if you take away the subsidies ethanol is expensive.

E-0 will gave you more range on your boat.

I burn E-10 in my F150 but it's worth the extra $ to fill up with E-0 premium for long runs due to the 20% better mileage. If I'm using my ATV a lot I use E-10 but I make sure it is burnt out before I put it back in the barn. My chainsaws get E-0, my gen set gets E-0, my brush cutters get E-0, my boats get E-0 regular but our lawn mowers get alfalfa.

[Metal Manipulator]

Small engines with the small idle pickup tube= problems with E10. I never had to rebuild/clean carborators untill this bovine crap was added. You guys can say all you want about your not having problems with it but I have had plenty and I no longer use it in my small engines as I do not have the time to clean up this political mess.

[ondarvr]

E-10 was around long before the current line up of 4 strokes, and the jet plugging issue became a real problem when new emission regulation were put in place, which was 1998. These regulations have became stricter since that time and jetting has become leaner, causing even more problems.

I will say the only place I've purchased bad fuel in many years was in Oregon, the motor ran terrible until I filled it up again WA.

[dog501]

Its a lot easier to say it's E10 fault, than to say it's my fault for not taken care of it, thats just human nature.

[Soulakala]

Keep it in mind that Mercury Marine sells not only motors they sell parts. The statement from Mercury that was posted does not address the other issues of E10 when equipment is stored.

However its clear E15 is not going to be friendly a non debatable issue. Thank goodness we have all these folks in our legislature and environmental agencies sending us down this path - is E20 just around the corner?

I think steam power is getting nearer to reality again. Lets see this scenario play out: "Hey buddy you should have fired up the boiler before you hit the ramp not after". "You're going to get fined today, it's a NO BURN day in the Metro area, unless your boiler is fired by E100.

MAKE SURE YOU VOTE IN YOUR FAVORITE LONG TIME POLITICIAN, HE'S LOOKING OUT FOR YOU.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by dog501

Its a lot easier to say it's E10 fault, than to say it's my fault for not taken care of it, thats just human nature.

Some of us have been mechanics for a few years before ethanol adulterated fuel was forced on us and have seen the problems caused by burning food for transportation.

Why did the problems start when E-10 was forced on us? Pre ethinol adulteration I'd see a few lawn mowers in the spring come in for fuel related problems but now I see far too many. Lawn mowers set for the winter, pre e-10 it usualy just took drainging the old gas, blowing out the carb jets and the mower was back running. Since E-10 my small re-cy barrel is full of small motor carborators every spring. Some can be saved but most can't.

My gen set never had issues with E-0 and fuel stabilizer setting in them for months, I run it for 1 hour almost every month. I've had to replace one carburetor due to ethanol adulterated fuel and now it's setting with a empty fuel tank and drained carb.

Why did the hoses on my '69 F-250 dissolve and the carburetor need to be rebuilt 2 years after starting to run E-10 in it? Is it part of general maintenance to replace fuel lines? Not before E-10.

Why did I have to rebuild the fuel system on my 76 Johnson 35hp less than 2 years after a complete rebuild? More melted hoses and carburetor issues.

Why should I spend what little $ we have buying new machines when the old ones I have run quite well with E-0? Do you know how hard it is to live on $14,000-$18,000 a year? I'll tell you this, we aren't buying newer trucks or cars anytime in the near future.

Lack of maintenance is not the problem, ethanol adulterated fuel is.

I won't go into the poor mielage at a time of record fuel prices.

I don't understand why a few of us have problems seeing the harm E-10 is causing, do you work for Big Ag?

[Metal Manipulator]

As far as Arco adding ethanol, I did not know this. Maybe that is why I quit buying fuel from them since my Auto's ran crappy after a fill up.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by Metal Manipulator

As far as Arco adding ethanol, I did not know this. Maybe that is why I quit buying fuel from them since my Auto's ran crappy after a fill up.

I can't remember but I think that Arco had a sign about up to 10% ethanol on their pumps. I only ran Arco gas when I had to, the harm ethanol does to motors was well known in the 70s, probably much earlier.

[retaliate]

Why does e10 only effect some people, my guess is that this post is not really about e10 as much as it is about Politics, some even suggest we should vote a certain way to fix this alleged problem...WOW!, to me Politics will only clowd the issue...which is usually their intent. Been a mechanic by necessity all my adult life, even helped my dad alot when I was just 12 years old...cause he was/is not a very good mechanic, I have seen clogged carburators well before e10 was even a thought, they don't look any different since e10 was introduced, & never had to replace any alcohol dammaged parts, just clean them...thats it, same as befor e10, a carburated motor that gets used on a regular basis rarely needs cleaned & or replaced, only the ones that sit for long periods during the off season, like lawnmowers, gererators, & chainsaws, which by the way I have never had to clean the carburator in either of my chainsaws, both over 15 yeras old now, & both very small motors(42cc, & 24cc), perhaps the 2 stroke oil mix helps, my Daughters 88 Corolla, is Carburated, & has never had a carburator issue what so ever, if it does have a problem, I would be the one to fix it, like I said I'm just sharing my personnel experiences, with no Political influence.

[Metal Manipulator]

So tell me what is the white substance that I find in my carborator bowls. This is what plugs up my idle jet in my 93 honda 10hp.

[Threeweight]

Originally Posted by Metal Manipulator

So tell me what is the white substance that I find in my carborator bowls. This is what plugs up my idle jet in my 93 honda 10hp.

Corroded aluminum, from the cast aluminum fuel bowl. Comes from water sitting in it (either from your fuel, or from atmosphere). I've seen it form a kind of paste with the varnish that forms when fuel sits and evaporates, makes quite a mess

[sadiesassy]

I can vouch for gas mileage. When I use gas with no ethanol - My gas mileage increase by 20% over ethanol gas. Think about it - get rid of ethanol and our mileage goes up.

Had the person who maintanes my lawn mover show me a bulletin from the dealer about the impact of ethanol on the carbureator. Turns out it is actually cheaper in the long run to replace it every couple yeras vs cleaning it every year. Again - if you have no choice - drain the carbureator at the endf of the season.

Don'y forget - by having farmers switch food production to ethanol production - out food cost go up

Originally Posted by Keta

#4 In a time of record fuel prices E10 gives you 15%-20% less mileage, a win win for those forcing ethanol on us
#6 Ethanol ties up farmland and burned a lot of fuel to grow, ferment and distill.

These are just what I can think of now, if one researches you will find many more reasons E10 is a poor fuel.

Machinery like my ATV sets more than I use it, If I put E10 in it and don't run it out in a 60 days or so I have to take the carb apart and blow out the jets. The same for any small motor that does not get used often, boat, lawnmower, chainsaw...etc..

Follow the money, Big Ag and several in congress are making big $ (at our expense) by forcing E10 on us. If you believe in fairies E10 production is far from "carbon neutral", in fact it has a very large enviromental footprint.

[kdr1]

Originally Posted by huntntrap

My fuel system has a five year warranty you think they would tell me to run it if they are paying the bill?

Obviously you had not had a problem YET so you have not had to play their game. Bad fuel is not covered under any warranty. If your fuel system goes bad you will need to be able to prove that it was a warrantied part and not bad fuel. They will say bad fuel and deny your warranty. Even Honda does this and they have about the best warranty coverage around. I talked to the manager of the main Honda shop here and he agreed that bad fuel is not covered and that most related claims are not covered because ethonol is indeed the biggest cause of related failures. Honda, or any other manufacturer can not warranty bad gas. From what I have seen ethonol is making a ton of money for repair shops. Ethonol is a scam put on us.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[Keta]

Originally Posted by retaliate

th with no Political influence.

But ethanol adulterated fuel is political and is making Big Ag and Big Oil a bunch of money thanks to the efforts of the best politicians money can buy.

[dog501]

Originally Posted by Keta

Some of us have been mechanics for a few years before ethanol adulterated fuel was forced on us and have seen the problems caused by burning food for transportation.

Why did the problems start when E-10 was forced on us? Pre ethinol adulteration I'd see a few lawn mowers in the spring come in for fuel related problems but now I see far too many. Lawn mowers set for the winter, pre e-10 it usualy just took drainging the old gas, blowing out the carb jets and the mower was back running. Since E-10 my small re-cy barrel is full of small motor carborators every spring. Some can be saved but most can't.

My gen set never had issues with E-0 and fuel stabilizer setting in them for months, I run it for 1 hour almost every month. I've had to replace one carburetor due to ethanol adulterated fuel and now it's setting with a empty fuel tank and drained carb.

Why did the hoses on my '69 F-250 dissolve and the carburetor need to be rebuilt 2 years after starting to run E-10 in it? Is it part of general maintenance to replace fuel lines? Not before E-10.

Why did I have to rebuild the fuel system on my 76 Johnson 35hp less than 2 years after a complete rebuild? More melted hoses and carburetor issues.

Why should I spend what little $ we have buying new machines when the old ones I have run quite well with E-0? Do you know how hard it is to live on $14,000-$18,000 a year? I'll tell you this, we aren't buying newer trucks or cars anytime in the near future.

Lack of maintenance is not the problem, ethanol adulterated fuel is.

I won't go into the poor mielage at a time of record fuel prices.

I don't understand why a few of us have problems seeing the harm E-10 is causing, do you work for Big Ag?

No I don't work for Big AG, and I hate E10, and hate E15 even more, and will not vote for any one that wants to run it down our throats. I just think that any thing that goes wrong people will blame it on E10 and the government, who's better to blame it on.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by dog501

No I don't work for Big AG, and I hate E10, and hate E15 even more, and will not vote for any one that wants to run it down our throats. I just think that any thing that goes wrong people will blame it on E10 and the government, who's better to blame it on.

OK, not all of the problems blamed on ethanol are caused by the adulterated fuel but many are.

[kdr1]

Originally Posted by dog501

Its a lot easier to say it's E10 fault, than to say it's my fault for not taken care of it, thats just human nature.

I guess I can understand why you would say this. It is just so hard to believe that our politicians and big business would do this if it was as bad as some say. But the fact is that it is as bad as anyone says. It has ruined many, many carbs. Just ask any mechanic at any place that works with small engines that do not get run all of the time. I have been warned by every outboard mechanic that I have spoken to and they see it as really really bad stuff. THis is one thing that can not be over hyped. Why do you think that Sta-bil is making so much money? It isn't marketing for sta-bil. The good thing is that sta-bil does work and will keep you out of trouble for the most part. You still need to remove all fuel from anything that you aren't going to run for more than a month. Even a month is pushing it now that more water is being put into the fuel. This is all part of the fuel conservation thing and the push to save every little bit of fuel is bigger than the problems that the fuel use causes for the politicians. I am all for fuel conservation, don't get me wrong, but this part of it is costing us a ton of money and aggravation. I wish someone in politics would speak up for those of us that get hurt by it. Where I fish all summer, they just quit carrying non-ethanol fuel because it just costs so much and the pump is shared with boats and cars/rv's who just won't pay the price of non ethanol gas. If you think it all just a big scare you are very wrong. Ethanol is very bad stuff.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by kdr1

Ethanol is very bad stuff.

Tequila isn't THAT bad.

I'm anti ethanol for fuel but I'm 100% for finding something better than oil.

[retaliate]

Originally Posted by Metal Manipulator

So tell me what is the white substance that I find in my carborator bowls. This is what plugs up my idle jet in my 93 honda 10hp.

Don't know what it is/was, or why, there was no white substance in the cast aluminum Bowl of our riding Lawnmower I went thru last month, the first time since new, there was a thin layer of brown slimy stuff on the bottom of the bowl, probably laquer starting to form, we don't run dry, drain & replace fuel, or use any additives in this Lawnmower since new, had to go thru our 2002 15hp 4 stroke yama/merc(back up motor on 19') a few years back, didn't see any white substance in the cast aluminum bowl than either, none in the cast aluminum Onan generaton bowl last weekend either, probably the first time the Bowl came off the generator in over 20 years, it did have the usual slime & rusty looking stuff, & smelt like laquer, we rarely use the Generator.

[kdr1]

Originally Posted by Keta

Tequila isn't THAT bad.

I'm anti ethanol for fuel but I'm 100% for finding something better than oil.

OK, then I must step back. Tequila is not that bad. Not at all.

[UncleRichie]

Ok how much polution does a gallon of regular gas put out ? How much with e-10 ? and if we get 10% less miles per gallon . So we use a gallon and 10% to go the same distance I for one don't think the number add up.
Richard

[retaliate]

Originally Posted by UncleRichie

Ok how much polution does a gallon of regular gas put out ? How much with e-10 ? and if we get 10% less miles per gallon . So we use a gallon and 10% to go the same distance I for one don't think the number add up.
Richard

Yeah! thats some funny math, one guy said they got 20% better fuel mileage with 10% less alcohol, that would make Gasoline 200% better fuel mileage than alcohol in their 100% pure form, more realistic math would be a 2% to 3% of 10% difference or hardly noticeable, on the other hand 10% of 100% cleaner(less polution) would be hardly noticeable also, aparently some don't know the 10 in e10 stands for 10%, or 1 part of 10, or 9 times(900%) more gasoline than alcohol, add another 5%, or e15, or 3 part's in 20, or 8 1/2 times(850%) more gasoline than alcohol, that would cause a catastrospic engine failure for sure, or at the very least, acording to some peoples math, a 30% decrease in fuel mileage.

I don't see alcohol as comming anywhere close to solving our fuel needs, nor do I see alcohol comming anywhere close to destroying our engines, if you see it as a problem don't buy it, if you don't see it as a problem, don't worry about it.

[kdr1]

Originally Posted by UncleRichie

Ok how much polution does a gallon of regular gas put out ? How much with e-10 ? and if we get 10% less miles per gallon . So we use a gallon and 10% to go the same distance I for one don't think the number add up.
Richard

I think you missed the point. If you add water to the gas, you get 10% more gas supply than you had before. It isn't so much about pollution of the air, it is about making the gas supply bigger than it is naturally.

[huntntrap]

Originally Posted by kdr1

I think you missed the point. If you add water to the gas, you get 10% more gas supply than you had before. It isn't so much about pollution of the air, it is about making the gas supply bigger than it is naturally.

Whos adding 10% water to gas?

[kdr1]

Originally Posted by huntntrap

Whos adding 10% water to gas?

sorry....meant alcohol..............although the alcohol is a magnet for water, so in a way it is adding water.

[Chass]

Originally Posted by kdr1

sorry....meant alcohol..............although the alcohol is a magnet for water, so in a way it is adding water.

Thats patently untrue. You must not have read any of the literature available about what Ethanol does in our fuel.

I ran E85 in my Honda for a year. It ran great once warm. My fuel mileage went from 29 to 26 mpg. By my calculations thats an 11% reduction in fuel mileage. At the time, I was saving more than that by buying the very cheap E85. Note that I had not made ANY changes to the car. If I had, my performane may have been better and it would not have been such a cold start on cold mornings.

As retaliate said, I don't think ethanol is going to solve the worlds fuel problems. Its an experiment and I personally think its failing because of high cost of production and the impact on food production. That doesn't make it bad for our engines . . .

Chass
ct

[Okie]

Originally Posted by Chass

I stand by my claim that its almost entirely maintenance and evironmental problems that are cuasing your issues.

I DON'T HAVE THEM! I take care of my junk.

I feel like you guys are not reading the the available literature . . . did anybody acutally read what huntntrap posted? If you read it top to bottom, I don't know how you could post some of the stuff I've read here.

Do what you must, I run E10 and everything keeps working. My junk works with ethanol. Heck, I just started my 1959 Ford 801 Powermaster tractor for the first time in 5 years. It had a half full tank of E10 when it was parked. A new battery and it started right up. That fuel STUNK like hell but it ran that danged tractor just fine. I drained it when I got it into the shop and put 5 gallons of fresh fuel in it. Runs like new.

Chass
ct

Stick with your ideas, they are good. Some of the remidies suggested by some will cause more problems than they fix.

There is a lot of talk now about converting engines to run on Natural gas.
This will be something if it comes to outboard engines and boat engines.

Good Luck

[kdr1]

Originally Posted by Chass

Thats patently untrue. You must not have read any of the literature available about what Ethanol does in our fuel.

I ran E85 in my Honda for a year. It ran great once warm. My fuel mileage went from 29 to 26 mpg. By my calculations thats an 11% reduction in fuel mileage. At the time, I was saving more than that by buying the very cheap E85. Note that I had not made ANY changes to the car. If I had, my performane may have been better and it would not have been such a cold start on cold mornings.

As retaliate said, I don't think ethanol is going to solve the worlds fuel problems. Its an experiment and I personally think its failing because of high cost of production and the impact on food production. That doesn't make it bad for our engines . . .

Chass
ct

1. "Ethanol should be avoided at all costs
By HANK JOHNSTON
I look forward each month to receiving my issue of Soundings Trade Only Magazine. This
magazine is full of information and news for and about the marine industry.
In this month’s issue was an article about ethanol and some of the concerns expressed by
experts in the marine industry regarding a petition to the Environmental Protection Agency to
increase the ethanol blend in gasoline from 10 percent to 15 percent. This petition has been
submitted by a lobbying group that represents ethanol producers.
It was approximately 30 years ago that the EPA first mandated a 10-percent limit on ethanol
when mixed with gasoline. Ethanol cost more to produce than gasoline — so much more that
the federal government actually subsidizes the producers over 50 cents per gallon via a tax
credit, and engines actually get less gas mileage on E10 than they would on good ol’ gasoline.
Ethanol for fuel is highly refined beverage (grain) alcohol, approximately 200 proof. It can be
produced from natural products such as corn, sugarcane and wheat. Ethanol used for fuel has
been ‘denatured,’ or rendered unsafe to drink, by the addition of a hydrocarbon (usually
gasoline).
When the EPA first directed the production of oxygenated gasoline to help reduce smog, the
additive of choice at that time was MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl either). Today most states have
outlawed the use of MTBE because it has a nasty habit of working its way through the earth and
into the ground water system.
Now ethanol is being used as a substitute to oxygenate gasoline and help reduce smog
emissions of internal combustion engines. Ethanol can help us achieve a cleaner environment
and may reduce some of our dependence on foreign oil, but we should be aware of the dangers
of this product and the effects it may have on our outboard motors.
Ethanol is a water magnet. It will pull water out of the air right through your gas tank vent hose.
In ourhigh-humidity climate, this can be especially harmful to your engine. As moisture is
absorbed, the molecules of alcohol/water become heavier than the gasoline in the tank, and
they settle to the bottom. This process is called “phase separation.”

2. "Ethanol is a magnet for water. It attaches itself to water, whether from the
bottom of the tank where natural condensation has occurred, or even from the air
in the tank. Normally, water falls to the bottom where it is out of harms way until
it reaches an unsafe level. However, ethanol actually “pulls” the moisture out of
the air into the gasoline and suspends this water in the fuel, contaminating the
whole tank. Being suspended in the fuel, the engine is then burning a mixture of
gasoline and water -- all the time. Eventually, the ethanol separates from the
gasoline (phase separation) and falls to the bottom of the tank still attached to
the water, forming a “glob” of sticky material. When this substance accumulates
high enough in the tank, then the engine is drawing in pure ethanol and water --
stalling the engine."

3. http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_...ms_damage.html

4. "Ethanol is an Alcohol Fuel...
Ethanol is an alcohol renewable fuel, made from corn or grains, which is used to oxygenate gasoline fuel at the pumps. See About Ethanol Fuels & Ethanol History
Ethanol is hygroscopic (will absorb water), and is an excellent solvent (dissolves materials)."


I could go on and on, but I think it is you that hasn't bothered to look at any of the literature and facts.

[lake creek charlie]

My dad was a master mechanic and maintained vehicles for peter kiewet. When e 10 came out they had to hire more mechanics. I also maintain my 5 quads, push mower,riding lawn mower 2generators and 2 vehicles.I have no problems with e10 in my wifes 2008 edge.seems to not be a problem.NOW, all the other motors mentioned and especially the generators have problems with e10. E10 ate the fuel shutoff valve on my generac 6500W generator.My honda 2000 generator stops running if fuel is left in it over a month.All the quads are polaris and e10 plugs up the float inlet stop.I have a station that sells e0 and it costs me about 25% more than e10, but is cheaper in the end.We dont run E10 in the 150 yami or the t8 as we go 60 miles out sometimes for tuna and have had to tear the t8 down after running e10.Lots of articles to read, and some are even true.Follow the money....

[Chass]

Those are all paraphrases from nonscientific articles. In fact, item two describes ethanol obsorbing water from the air which it doesn't in any measurable amount from a fuel tank. It directly contradicts scientific articles posted elsewhere in this thread. Item 1 is entirely about E15 which I believe to be a bad thing from my reading. There is a big difference between E10 and E15.

Your statement suggests that E10 (The topic of discussion) will attract water to your fuel. That is not true. I will disolve small amounts of water that is already in your tank in the fuel. This is a good thing as you won't have separated water in your engine. It will burn up just like the water in the air does. Ethanol will ultimately keep separated water OUT of your fuel.

You keep believing the propaganda and ignoring the facts . . . I'll stick to the facts.

Ethanol may not be a great deal or the answer to fuel issues but it is not the cause of all your fuel problems as many here have suggested.

Chass
ct

Originally Posted by kdr1

1. "Ethanol should be avoided at all costs
By HANK JOHNSTON
I look forward each month to receiving my issue of Soundings Trade Only Magazine. This
magazine is full of information and news for and about the marine industry.
In this month’s issue was an article about ethanol and some of the concerns expressed by
experts in the marine industry regarding a petition to the Environmental Protection Agency to
increase the ethanol blend in gasoline from 10 percent to 15 percent. This petition has been
submitted by a lobbying group that represents ethanol producers.
It was approximately 30 years ago that the EPA first mandated a 10-percent limit on ethanol
when mixed with gasoline. Ethanol cost more to produce than gasoline — so much more that
the federal government actually subsidizes the producers over 50 cents per gallon via a tax
credit, and engines actually get less gas mileage on E10 than they would on good ol’ gasoline.
Ethanol for fuel is highly refined beverage (grain) alcohol, approximately 200 proof. It can be
produced from natural products such as corn, sugarcane and wheat. Ethanol used for fuel has
been ‘denatured,’ or rendered unsafe to drink, by the addition of a hydrocarbon (usually
gasoline).
When the EPA first directed the production of oxygenated gasoline to help reduce smog, the
additive of choice at that time was MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl either). Today most states have
outlawed the use of MTBE because it has a nasty habit of working its way through the earth and
into the ground water system.
Now ethanol is being used as a substitute to oxygenate gasoline and help reduce smog
emissions of internal combustion engines. Ethanol can help us achieve a cleaner environment
and may reduce some of our dependence on foreign oil, but we should be aware of the dangers
of this product and the effects it may have on our outboard motors.
Ethanol is a water magnet. It will pull water out of the air right through your gas tank vent hose.
In ourhigh-humidity climate, this can be especially harmful to your engine. As moisture is
absorbed, the molecules of alcohol/water become heavier than the gasoline in the tank, and
they settle to the bottom. This process is called “phase separation.”

2. "Ethanol is a magnet for water. It attaches itself to water, whether from the
bottom of the tank where natural condensation has occurred, or even from the air
in the tank. Normally, water falls to the bottom where it is out of harms way until
it reaches an unsafe level. However, ethanol actually “pulls” the moisture out of
the air into the gasoline and suspends this water in the fuel, contaminating the
whole tank. Being suspended in the fuel, the engine is then burning a mixture of
gasoline and water -- all the time. Eventually, the ethanol separates from the
gasoline (phase separation) and falls to the bottom of the tank still attached to
the water, forming a “glob” of sticky material. When this substance accumulates
high enough in the tank, then the engine is drawing in pure ethanol and water --
stalling the engine."

3. http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_...ms_damage.html

4. "Ethanol is an Alcohol Fuel...
Ethanol is an alcohol renewable fuel, made from corn or grains, which is used to oxygenate gasoline fuel at the pumps. See About Ethanol Fuels & Ethanol History
Ethanol is hygroscopic (will absorb water), and is an excellent solvent (dissolves materials)."


I could go on and on, but I think it is you that hasn't bothered to look at any of the literature and facts.

[Okie]

Originally Posted by kdr1

1. "Ethanol should be avoided at all costs
By HANK JOHNSTON
I look forward each month to receiving my issue of Soundings Trade Only Magazine. This
magazine is full of information and news for and about the marine industry.
In this month’s issue was an article about ethanol and some of the concerns expressed by
experts in the marine industry regarding a petition to the Environmental Protection Agency to
increase the ethanol blend in gasoline from 10 percent to 15 percent. This petition has been
submitted by a lobbying group that represents ethanol producers.
It was approximately 30 years ago that the EPA first mandated a 10-percent limit on ethanol
when mixed with gasoline. Ethanol cost more to produce than gasoline — so much more that
the federal government actually subsidizes the producers over 50 cents per gallon via a tax
credit, and engines actually get less gas mileage on E10 than they would on good ol’ gasoline.
Ethanol for fuel is highly refined beverage (grain) alcohol, approximately 200 proof. It can be
produced from natural products such as corn, sugarcane and wheat. Ethanol used for fuel has
been ‘denatured,’ or rendered unsafe to drink, by the addition of a hydrocarbon (usually
gasoline).
When the EPA first directed the production of oxygenated gasoline to help reduce smog, the
additive of choice at that time was MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl either). Today most states have
outlawed the use of MTBE because it has a nasty habit of working its way through the earth and
into the ground water system.
Now ethanol is being used as a substitute to oxygenate gasoline and help reduce smog
emissions of internal combustion engines. Ethanol can help us achieve a cleaner environment
and may reduce some of our dependence on foreign oil, but we should be aware of the dangers
of this product and the effects it may have on our outboard motors.
Ethanol is a water magnet. It will pull water out of the air right through your gas tank vent hose.
In ourhigh-humidity climate, this can be especially harmful to your engine. As moisture is
absorbed, the molecules of alcohol/water become heavier than the gasoline in the tank, and
they settle to the bottom. This process is called “phase separation.”

2. "Ethanol is a magnet for water. It attaches itself to water, whether from the
bottom of the tank where natural condensation has occurred, or even from the air
in the tank. Normally, water falls to the bottom where it is out of harms way until
it reaches an unsafe level. However, ethanol actually “pulls” the moisture out of
the air into the gasoline and suspends this water in the fuel, contaminating the
whole tank. Being suspended in the fuel, the engine is then burning a mixture of
gasoline and water -- all the time. Eventually, the ethanol separates from the
gasoline (phase separation) and falls to the bottom of the tank still attached to
the water, forming a “glob” of sticky material. When this substance accumulates
high enough in the tank, then the engine is drawing in pure ethanol and water --
stalling the engine."

3. http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_...ms_damage.html

4. "Ethanol is an Alcohol Fuel...
Ethanol is an alcohol renewable fuel, made from corn or grains, which is used to oxygenate gasoline fuel at the pumps. See About Ethanol Fuels & Ethanol History
Ethanol is hygroscopic (will absorb water), and is an excellent solvent (dissolves materials)."


I could go on and on, but I think it is you that hasn't bothered to look at any of the literature and facts.

Having ethanol mix with water could be a good thing. A certian amount of water is good for the engine. Just not to much. That's the 64 dollar question ?

Ethanol is often blamed for problems that are often caused by other things that have nothing to do with ethanol.

Good Luck

[BARCHASER]

Its the big money farm lobby. Thats all that counts anymore....MONEY.

Old saying: "Money corrupts and a lot of money corrupts completely." That we got!

I have Yamaha OBs on my North River. I've been told to use BOTH Marine Stabil and Yamaha Ring Free additives. Been using both of those since new and no problems over 5 years.

I've also been told to NOT switch back and forth between E10 and non E10 gas. Use one or the other but do not switch back and forth. The mechanic that told me that gave me a long winded technical explanation that I cant repeat from memory but it sounded good.

[Chass]

Originally Posted by BARCHASER

I've also been told to NOT switch back and forth between E10 and non E10 gas. Use one or the other but do not switch back and forth. The mechanic that told me that gave me a long winded technical explanation that I cant repeat from memory but it sounded good.

I wonder what his reasoning is. I don't have much of a choice. I run E10 all year except when I'm on in Canada for a couple weeks during the summer. You can't find Ethanol fuel on the water

Chass
ct

[stone crab]

Originally Posted by Chass

I wonder what his reasoning is. I don't have much of a choice. I run E10 all year except when I'm on in Canada for a couple weeks during the summer. You can't find Ethanol fuel on the water

Chass
ct

It is old information. That advice was for when MTBE was added as an oxygenator to our fuel. MTBE poisoned the ground water and was pulled from our gas.
MTBE and ethanol do not play well and the mixture of both was disastrous to early users of ethanol and old MTBE gas.

Adding ethanol, e10, and non ethanol gas is perfectly fine now a days, as the mixture of the two will only result in a net loss of ethanol concentration. So you might have e4 or e6 or whatever your mixture was diluted to.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by Chass

I wonder what his reasoning is.

That has me confused to Chass, I try to keep E-10 and E-0 separate and switch when the tank is almost empty (E-10 if I know I'm going to run it all out) so I'm not mixing them but I ofter run both in the same motor.

[Chass]

Originally Posted by stone crab

It is old information. That advice was for when MTBE was added as an oxygenator to our fuel. MTBE poisoned the ground water and was pulled from our gas.
MTBE and ethanol do not play well and the mixture of both was disastrous to early users of ethanol and old MTBE gas.

Adding ethanol, e10, and non ethanol gas is perfectly fine now a days, as the mixture of the two will only result in a net loss of ethanol concentration. So you might have e4 or e6 or whatever your mixture was diluted to.

Got it! Thanks.

Chass
ct

[Keta]

Originally Posted by Chass

Got it! Thanks.

Chass
ct

X2

[pharmseller]

Originally Posted by Keta

Tequila isn't THAT bad.

Originally Posted by kdr1

OK, then I must step back. Tequila is not that bad. Not at all.

You are both wrong.

Tequila is the devil.

P

[Chass]

Originally Posted by pharmseller

You are both wrong.

Tequila is the devil.

P

When it comes to this subject, I am a professional! I know all the facts . . . if I can remember them the next day

She is a beautiful devil if so . . .

Chass
ct

[Fishing PaPa]

So much Math..... now my head hurts.

So Ken, you mean to tell me I can have my own opinion, and, you can have your own opinion and they do not have to be the same? What a concept. I think they should create a country where this is always OK. What do ya think?

Originally Posted by retaliate

Yeah! thats some funny math, one guy said they got 20% better fuel mileage with 10% less alcohol, that would make Gasoline 200% better fuel mileage than alcohol in their 100% pure form, more realistic math would be a 2% to 3% of 10% difference or hardly noticeable, on the other hand 10% of 100% cleaner(less polution) would be hardly noticeable also, aparently some don't know the 10 in e10 stands for 10%, or 1 part of 10, or 9 times(900%) more gasoline than alcohol, add another 5%, or e15, or 3 part's in 20, or 8 1/2 times(850%) more gasoline than alcohol, that would cause a catastrospic engine failure for sure, or at the very least, acording to some peoples math, a 30% decrease in fuel mileage.

I don't see alcohol as comming anywhere close to solving our fuel needs, nor do I see alcohol comming anywhere close to destroying our engines, if you see it as a problem don't buy it, if you don't see it as a problem, don't worry about it.

[Critr Gitr]

Originally Posted by Keta

E-10 is produced using food and food producing land and ethanol production has a very large environmental footprint.

Big Ag and their bought and paid for politicians are the only reason we have been forced to using this poor fuel.

Ethanol is diverting and stopping research into a real source of bio energy.

Fundamental question ... Do we feed people or vehicles - I'll go with feeding people and engaging in real bio fuels research ...

[retaliate]

Originally Posted by Fishing PaPa

So much Math..... now my head hurts.

So Ken, you mean to tell me I can have my own opinion, and, you can have your own opinion and they do not have to be the same? What a concept. I think they should create a country where this is always OK. What do ya think?

"you want an opinion...we'll give you an opinion" thats what Sig Hansen said when Jake was trying to give his opinion. Everybody has a right to their opinion, even if their opinion was given to them, when Politics is involved, more often than not...thats what you get, some people even make up stuff to try to validate their Political stance, thats sad cause it's neither opinion, or fact, we all see things differently, even if it's slightly different, no 2 people are exactly alike, we are as unique as our finger print, what a boring world it would be if everybody thinks the same, however we would be better off without all the BS Politics IMO.

[Fishing PaPa]

Originally Posted by retaliate

"you want an opinion...we'll give you an opinion" thats what Sig Hansen said when Jake was trying to give his opinion. Everybody has a right to their opinion, even if their opinion was given to them, when Politics is involved, more often than not...thats what you get, some people even make up stuff to try to validate their Political stance, thats sad cause it's neither opinion, or fact, we all see things differently, even if it's slightly different, no 2 people are exactly alike, we are as unique as our finger print, what a boring world it would be if everybody thinks the same, however we would be better off without all the BS Politics IMO.

[KingSlew]

If you're having a hard time with the price of ham for this Easter's dinner, you can blame it on ethanol.
Forty per cent of the corn crop goes to making ethanol.
Pigs eat corn...

[freshbackstraps]

Ethanol is tasty.

[Soulakala]

I keep telling everyone its all about generating taxes and thinking your GOING GREEN. The fact is the Gasoline Gallon Equivalent (GGE) of Ethanol is such that it takes nearly 1.5 gallons of Ethanol to equal the energy in one gallon of unleaded gasoline. One gallon of Ethanol equals 76,100 btus, while one gallon of gas is 114,100 btus.

If we really wanted to cut our emissions and stop wasting fuel we would be burning #2 diesel which has nearly 130,000 btus per gallon. Notice most of Europe runs diesel, smaller engines with great power. So why not here, its how the tax structure is set up. The more fuel we burn the more money is in the state and federal coffer. Remember even the Model T was designed to run on E100 but with problems attached. So lets burn some E85 and not only fuel our vehicles but help fuel the politicians that represent the Ethanol agriculture industry. Perhaps when we reach E100 as in Sweden we can fuel our vehicle, get a nice grape ICEE and squeeze in a little E100 into the ICEE before driving off. One big drawback to E100 is drunks could be siphoning your tank for a drink.

[Salmo_Gairdneri]

Originally Posted by Keta

I burn E-10 in my F150 but it's worth the extra $ to fill up with E-0 premium for long runs due to the 20% better mileage.

I'm against ethanol production for a million reasons. But if you believe that adding 10% alcohol to your gasoline reduces the mileage by 20%...

I'd be surprised if adding 10% water to your fuel would reduce mileage that much.

But whatever. There are plenty of reasons to oppose ethanol production and subsidies. No need to invent more.

Not for nothing - all my stuff is 2004 or later. E10 has caused no issues. From string trimmers to edgers to my 4 outboards to whatever.

Still hate ethanol production - but that's a political discussion.

-S

[freshbackstraps]

It took one tank of e10 to kill the soft rubber gasket on my dirtbike gas cap. The first time I opened the gas cap after filling up with E10 the dried out remains of the gasket literally broke into pieces and fell into the gas tank.

I then bought a replacement gasket thinking that the gasket was probably dry from old age (4-5 years old). A few days later I notice the newly installed gasket was floating in the gas tank. It had shrunk ever so slightly and no longer would stay seated in the gas cap. Apparently E10 and soft rubber do not play well.

Anecdotal? Yes. Coincidence? I think not.

[ondarvr]

Everybody knows E-10 can do bad things to non resistant rubber, but shame on a motorcycle company for using a non resistant gasket in this day and age. None of my bikes have ever had an adverse reaction to E-10.

[Rawsk]

Originally Posted by Salmo_Gairdneri

I'm against ethanol production for a million reasons. But if you believe that adding 10% alcohol to your gasoline reduces the mileage by 20%...

I'd be surprised if adding 10% water to your fuel would reduce mileage that much.

But whatever. There are plenty of reasons to oppose ethanol production and subsidies. No need to invent more.

Not for nothing - all my stuff is 2004 or later. E10 has caused no issues. From string trimmers to edgers to my 4 outboards to whatever.

Still hate ethanol production - but that's a political discussion.

-S

May be true if you have an old inefficient engine - but you can bet on a new fuel injected motor they wring out as much power as they can from every drop - and water does not burn. Expands some but not like the gas.
If BTU's did not matter I would burn water from my well and my diesel truck would not blow away a gas truck for towing mileage and power.
From wikipedia:
The first law of thermodynamics is a version of the law of conservation of energy, specialized for thermodynamical systems. It is usually formulated by stating that the change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work performed by the system on its surroundings. The law of conservation of energy can be stated: The energy of an isolated system is constant.
or
You can't get something from nothing and BTU's matter.

Which brings up the question - for the rated power of my outboard - does the manufacturer state the type of fuel used? They say at what RPM and have power curves but I would like to see that for the fuel type as well. What is my 150 putting out with E10?

[Skin Dog]

Originally Posted by oregonrafter

Thanks guys. I was unsure before, and now am confused as hell.

2 yr old riding Toro mower spit smoke all over the neighborhood, $200 to fix the carb, so I'd say yes to the ethanol issue is proven.

6 yr old Yamaha 150 still going strong, but always have put in the middle grade of gas, have fuel water filter, etc. So I'm hopin...

[retaliate]

Just fired up the past weekend the push Lawn mower, & both older rototillers that have been siting for nearly a year with e-10 in the tanks, & carb's, no e-10 problems with any of them.....again, I got sunburned, & my back hurts from hours of rototilling tho.

[Keta]

Originally Posted by retaliate

Just fired up the past weekend the push Lawn mower, & both older rototillers that have been siting for nearly a year with e-10 in the tanks, & carb's, no e-10 problems with any of them.....again, I got sunburned, & my back hurts from hours of rototilling tho.

With most people I'd have to say BS but I trust you...what are you doing?

[Chass]

Justin,

This is for you. This is one of the sources I was referencing.

Chass
ct

Originally Posted by Threeweight

Then they are violating the law and subject to big fines. Pretty sure Washington has the E10 mandate in place. Wonder if they could be blending the ethanol at the pump? Adding 100 gallons of E100 to 1000 gallons of E0?

BoatUS Magazine had a good article on ethanol myths and facts a while back, along with quotes from a webinar done by Mercury Marine.

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/...er/ethanol.asp

Merc webinar:

Mercury Debunks More Ethanol Myths Mercury Marine, the world's largest manufacturer of marine engines, recently held a webinar to debunk some of its own myths about ethanol. I attended with interest. The first myth was that there are fuel additives that can prevent all issues associated with ethanol-blended gasoline. For example, no fuel additive can prevent ethanol from acting like a solvent. The second myth was that fuel additives can make stale or phase-separated fuel useable. "Fuel cannot be rejuvenated," Mercury determined, and they noted that it's a myth that ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided. Here are some quotes from the Mercury Marine webinar.

• "There is no active transfer mechanism for ethanol molecules to reach out and 'grab' water molecules out of the air. Under normal storage conditions, even in a vented fuel tank, it just does not happen at a level or rate that is relevant."
• "Major multi-billion dollar companies with enormous resources have improved gasoline additives but there have been no recent breakthroughs involving 'magical technology.' Claims made by companies about 'space-age,' 'revolutionary,' or special proprietary technology should be looked at with a high degree of suspicion."
• "E10 Ethanol absolutely IS an acceptable fuel for everyday use."
• "E15 Ethanol absolutely IS NOT an acceptable fuel."
• "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'"
• "Don't immediately assume E10 is the problem."

[Chass]

This is another one. Between these two, there is enough scientific evidence for me to believe ethanol is a perfectly viable boat fuel. I will continue to run it in my boats.

That said, I recently tried to run last years outboard fuel from our Canada trip in my weedeater and it did NOT work. It is 9 months old and the engine would not run well at all. I had cleaned the carb, filled it with that older fuel (it didn't smell bad) and started it. Barely ran. I drained the tank, filled it with freshly mixed fuel and started it. As soon as the old fuel cycled through the line and carb, it ran like a top. All fuel goes bad with time. Ethanol fuel may go bad quicker . . .

Chass
ct

Originally Posted by huntntrap

MEMORANDUM

SUBJECT: Water Phase Separation in Oxygenated Gasoline
- Corrected version of Kevin Krause memo
FROM: David Korotney, Chemical Engineer
Fuels Studies and Standards Branch
TO: Susan Willis, Manager
Fuels Studies and Standards Group
On May 26, 1995, Kevin Krause finalized a memorandum
describing the conditions under which water phase separation will
occur in oxygenated gasolines. Recently, several errors were
discovered in that memorandum. I have made the necessary
corrections, and now resubmit the complete text of Kevin's memo
for your review and approval.
Introduction
With the introduction of oxygenated gasoline came the
concern of water phase separation. Water in gasoline can have
different effects on an engine, depending on whether it is in
solution or a separate phase, and depending on the type of engine
being used. While separate water phases in a fuel can be
damaging to an engine, small amounts of water in solution with
gasoline should have no adverse effects on engine components. If
precautions to prevent water from entering the fuel system are
taken, water phase separation will likely not occur.
Discussion
Oxygenated fuels usually contain either ethanol or methyltertiary-
butyl-ether (MTBE). Other possible oxygenates include
ethyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (ETBE), tertiary-amyl-methyl-ether
(TAME), and tertiary-butyl-alcohol (TBA). Chemically, ethanol
and MTBE behave differently. Ethanol, for example, will readily
dissolve water, and is considered infinitely soluble in water.
MTBE, on the other hand, has little affinity for water, and can
only be dissolved in water to a content of 4.3 volume percent (at
room temperature). Therefore, ethanol/gasoline blends can
dissolve much more water than conventional gasoline, whereas
gasoline/MTBE blends act very much like conventional gasoline
when in the presence of water.
-40 -20 0 20 40 60 80
0.2
0.3
0.4
0.5
0.6
Temperature (F)
Water Content (Vol. %)
Water Tolerance of
90% Gasoline/10% Ethanol Blends
2
Figure 1
Since ethanol and water readily dissolve in each other, when
ethanol is used as an additive in gasoline, water will actually
dissolve in the blended fuel to a much greater extent than in
conventional gasoline. When the water reaches the maximum amount
that the gasoline blend can dissolve, any additional water will
separate from the gasoline. The amount of water required (in
percent of the total volume) for this phase separation to take
place varies with temperature, as shown in Figure 1. As an
example, at 60 degrees F, water can be absorbed by a blend of 90%
gasoline and 10% ethanol up to a content of 0.5 volume percent
before it will phase separate. This means that approximately 3.8
teaspoons of water can be dissolved per gallon of the fuel before
the water will begin to phase separate.
Since MTBE has much less affinity for water than does
ethanol, however, phase separation for MTBE/gasoline blends
occurs with only a small amount of water, as shown in Figure 2.
A blend of 85% gasoline and 15% MTBE can hold only 0.5 teaspoons
at 60 degrees F per gallon before the water will phase separate.
For comparison, one gallon of 100% gasoline can dissolve only
0.15 teaspoons water at the same temperature. These figures are
far below the 3.8 teaspoons which will cause phase separation in
the 90/10 ethanol blend.
0 20 40 60 80
0
0.02
0.04
0.06
0.08
Temperature (F)
Water Content (Vol. %)
100% Gasoline
15% MTBE
Water Tolerance of
100% Gasoline and 85%/15% MTBE Blends
3
Figure 2
Water can enter gasoline engines in two ways: in solution
with the fuel or as a separate phase from the gasoline. Water in
solution operates as no more than an inert diluent in the
combustion process. Since water is a natural product of
combustion, any water in solution is removed with the product
water in the exhaust system. The only effect water in solution
with gasoline can have on an engine is decreased fuel economy.
For example, assuming a high water concentration of 0.5 volume
percent, one would see a 0.5 percent decrease in fuel economy.
This fuel economy decrease is too low for an engine operator to
notice, since many other factors (such as ambient temperature
changes, wind and road conditions, etc.) affect fuel economy to a
much larger extent.
Water as a separate phase, however, can have differing
effects on gasoline engines, depending on whether the engine is
two-stroke (generally, smaller engines) or four-stroke (generally
automobile engines). In the case of conventional and MTBEblended
gasolines, when a water phase forms, it will drop to the
bottom of the fuel tank, and can therefore be drawn into the
engine by the fuel pump. Therefore, large amounts of water will
prevent the engine from running, but no engine damage will
result.
Phase separation in ethanol-blended gasoline, however, can
be more damaging than in MTBE blends and straight gasoline. When
phase separation occurs in an ethanol blended gasoline, the water
will actually begin to remove the ethanol from the gasoline.
Therefore, the second phase which can occur in ethanol blends
contains both ethanol and water, as opposed to just water in MTBE
blends and conventional gasoline. In the case of two-stroke
4
engines, this water-ethanol phase will compete with the blended
oil for bonding to the metal engine parts. Therefore, the engine
will not have enough lubrication, and engine damage may result.
In the case of four-stroke engines, the water-ethanol phase may
combust in the engine. This combustion can be damaging to the
engine because the water ethanol phase creates a leaner
combustion mixture (i.e. air to fuel ratio is higher than ideal).
Leaner mixtures tend to combust at higher temperatures, and can
damage engines, particularly those without sensors to calibrate
air to fuel ratios.
Phase separation, however, generally only occurs when liquid
water (as opposed to water vapor) is introduced to the fuel
system. If tank vents are left open, either in the engine being
operated, or at a fuel distribution station, water can enter the
fuel system in the form of rain (or spillage, etc.) or through
the air in the form of moisture. Also, since conventional
gasoline absorbs very little water, there is often a layer of
water present at the bottom of a filling station tank normally
used to store conventional gasoline (water is more dense than
gasoline, and will therefore sink to the bottom). Before an
oxygenated gasoline is added to such a storage tank for the first
time (particularly ethanol-blended fuels), this water must be
purged from the tank to prevent the water from removing any
ethanol from the fuel.
Since the solubility of water in both gasoline and air
decreases with a decrease in temperature, water can enter a fuel
system through condensation when the atmospheric temperature
changes. For example, assume a tank containing conventional
gasoline contains only one gallon of fuel. Assume also that it
is closed while the outside temperature is 100 degrees F with a
relative humidity of 100 percent. If this tank is left sealed
and the temperature drops to 40 degrees F, water will likely
condense on the inside of the tank, and dissolve in the fuel. In
order for enough water to condense from the air to cause
gasoline-water phase separation, however, there must be
approximately 200 gallons of air per gallon of fuel over this
temperature drop (100 to 40 degrees). Since oxygenated fuels can
hold even more water than conventional gasoline, it is even more
unlikely that enough water will condense from the air to cause
gasoline-water phase separation.
Another way water can enter gasoline is through absorption
from the air. Water, in the form of water vapor, can dissolve in
gasoline. The more humid the air, the faster the water vapor
will dissolve in the gasoline. Due to chemical equilibrium,
however, assuming a constant temperature, phase separation will
5
never occur if the only source of water is from the air. Only
enough water to saturate the fuel can enter the system, and no
more. Water vapor, however, dissolves in gasoline very slowly,
even at very high humidity. For example, at a constant
temperature of 100 degrees F and relative humidity of 100%, it
would take well over 200 days to saturate one gallon of gasoline
in an open gasoline can (assuming the only source of water is
water vapor from the air). Water absorption from the air is far
slower at lower temperatures and humidities. (At a temperature
of 70 degrees and relative humidity of 70%, it would take over
two years to saturate one gallon of conventional gasoline in the
same gasoline can.) Again, oxygenated gasolines can hold more
water than conventional gasoline, and would therefore take much
longer to saturate with water.
Conclusion
Water phase separation in any gasoline is most likely to
occur when liquid water comes in contact with the fuel. (Water
in the form of moisture in the air will generally not cause phase
separation.) Water which is in solution with gasoline is not a
problem in any engine, but as a separate phase it can prevent an
engine from running or even cause damage. Since oxygenated
gasolines, however, can hold more water than conventional
gasoline, phase separation is less likely to occur with
oxygenates present.
For any gasoline, simple precautions to prevent phase
separation from occuring should be taken. First of all, gasoline
should not be stored for long periods of time, especially during
seasonal changes which usually have large temperature changes
associated with them. (For both oxygenated and conventional
gasolines, gumming can also occur which is detrimental to any
engine.) If it is unavoidable to store gasoline for a long
period of time, one should be sure that the tank if full to
prevent condensation of water from the air, and the addition of a
fuel stabilizer should be considered. Lastly, care should be
taken not to allow water into the fuel sytem while filling fuel
tanks or operating the engine -- in the form of rain or a spash,
for example.
6
References
"Alcohols and Ethers: A Technical Assessment of Their
Application as Fuels and Fuel Components." API Publication
#4261, July 1988.
Douthit, W.H., B.C. Davis, E.D. Steinke, and H.M. Doherty.
"Performace Features of 15% MTBE/Gasoline Blends." SAE Technical
Paper Series #881667, October 1988.
"Fuel Ethanol." Technical Bulletin, Archer Daniels Midland
Company, September 1993.
"Storing and Handling Ethanol and Gasoline-Ethanol Blends at
Distribution Terminals and Service Stations." API Recommended
Practice #1626, First Edition, April 1985.
"The Use of Oxygenated Gasoline in Lawn & Garden Power Equipment,
Motorcycles, Boats, & Recreational Equipment." Downstream
Alternatives, Inc. Document #941101, November 1994.
"Use of Oxygenated Gasolines in Non-Automotive Engines." Chevron

Technical Bulletin, December 1992.

http://epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf